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Vedavyasa:
[translating] He thinks there's a great
difference between the
talking of birds and bees and our talking.
Prabhupada:
Why difference? They are talking in their community,
you are talking in your community.
Hansadutta:
No, he [Professor Pater Porsch] has said a very good point. He said
there
is a difference because an animal has no self-consciousness. He does
not understand what he is in essence.
Prabhupada:
Yes. That is the real point. That is the real point,
that you can try to understand what you are. The birds and beasts, they
cannot understand. That is the difference. So our human effort should
be utilized for that realization, not to act like birds and beasts.
Therefore the Brahma-sutra, Vedanta-sutra,
instructs in the beginning, athato brahma jijnasa:
"This life is meant for inquiring about the supreme spirit or Absolute
Truth." That is the aim of this life, not like birds and beasts, simply
talking and eating and sleeping, but extra responsibility, extra
intelligence is there to understand the Absolute Truth. You take the Srimad-Bhagavatam,
First Canto, first part, yes. Jivasya tattva-jijnasa. Jivasya
tattva-jijnasa nartho yash cheha
karmabhih.
Satsvarupa:
It's not here. First part is not here.
Prabhupada:
No. First of all find out from the index this verse. Jivasya
tattva-jijnasa nartho yash
cheha karmabhih. Kamasya nendriya-pritir labho
jiveta yavata, jivasya
tattva-jijnasa yash... Kamasya
nendriya-pritih [Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.2.10]. Have
you found?
Satsvarupa:
Chapter Two, verse 10. But the verse is not here. It
is in the first volume.
Devotee:
Some[one] is bringing.
Prabhupada:
So he has gone?
Devotee:
Yes.
Prabhupada:
Yes, that is explained, that how this human form of
life should be utilized, these necessities of life, not for to complete
the necessities. Necessities of life, they are already supplied by God.
Just like the birds and beasts, they are getting their necessities of
life. They have no organization or no business, no factory, but they
are getting their necessities of life. So Bhagavata says,
"This is
not the problem, to acquire only the necessities of life. The only
business is to inquire about the Absolute Truth. That is human life."
[to Satsvarupa:] Read this verse.
Satsvarupa:
kamasya
nendriya-pritir
labho jiveta
yavata
jivasya tattva-jijnasa
nartho
yash cheha karmabhih [Srimad-Bhagavgatam 1.2.10]
"Translation:
Life's desires should never be aimed at gratifying the
senses. One should desire to live only because human life enables one
to inquire about the Absolute Truth. This should be the goal of all
works."
Prabhupada: Te...
what is that? Jivasya
tattva-jijnasa, inquiring about the Absolute Truth, that
is the only business of human being.
Professor
Dürckheim: Now may I put a question? Just I think there is
one way to reconcile. This was given just now as a Christian view or of
the other side, as far as the body is concerned, because I think there
are three consciousness, conscience of body. The one looks only at
health, the second one only of beauty, but the third one we are never
talking about has to look to transparence of our body consciousness, to
become transparent in a way that in our body and through our body we
might look for the Absolute Truth.
Prabhupada:
Yes.
Professor
Dürckheim: That this goes together.
Prabhupada:
Yes. So the thing is that if my life is based on false
conception that "I am this body," so the bodily appreciation of beauty
or any other thing, that is also false. That is also false. If I am not
this body, then anything conceived in relation with this body, that is
false.
Professor
Dürckheim: That is perhaps not completely like that,
because we see the body
usual in health or beauty, and to that extent we remain certainly
attached to the body, but there
is also a third possibility: that the body is experienced as
transparency to something different.
Vedavyasa:
[translating] He says that usually we see the body in connection with
beauty or health. But there is another possibility, to use the body as
a transparent medium to conceive the Absolute Truth.
Prabhupada:
Yes, that is explained here. Jivasya
tattva-jijnasa. That means with this body you should not
waste your time like the birds and beasts but utilize it for inquiring
about the Absolute Truth. That is reality.
Professor Pater
Porsch:
Not only to the Absolute Truth, but to communicate
together. Think of the smiling of a child, its first communication
between man. It's not only the body as instrument for the eternal truth
but under, among us.
Prabhupada:
So that you have to learn, how with this body you can
utilize your energy to understand the Absolute Truth and reestablish
your relationship with the Absolute Truth.
Professor Pater
Porsch: Is it a waste to use this body to do good for others? If
I smile, if I am pleased, if I express something, is that a waste of
energy?
Vedavyasa:
[translating] He says it's a waste of our energy if we try to do good
for others, if we smile and be kind...
Prabhupada:
But you cannot do good to others because you do not
know what is good.
You are thinking of good in terms of your body, but
body is false. Therefore the conception of goodness is also false.
[German]
Professor Pater
Porsch:
I cannot accept that the body is false.
Prabhupada:
No, no. I withdraw that word false. But it is not you.
It is false in this sense, that you are accepting this body yourself,
but that you are not. Just like...
Professor Pater
Porsch:
But I live my identity with the body.
Prabhupada:
With the body. But the body is false, false in this
sense, that you are not this body. You are simply... Just like I am
occupying this apartment, but I am not this apartment. I am different
from this apartment. This is understanding. So if you take interest of
the apartment and you forget yourself, that is false. If I
simply decorate this body, apartment, and I don't eat myself, then what
is the... This is false attempt, that we are trying... This is called.
In the Bhagavata it is said that apranasya hi
dehasya
mandanam loka-ranjanam. Now, this body, just you or I,
everyone, we are nicely dressed. But if the life is gone from the body,
if you dress the body, is that very good intelligence? You have
understood? That I am dressing, so long my life is there, I am dressing
very nicely this body, but when the body is dead, if you dress the body
or somebody or your relative dresses nicely, it is very good
intelligence? [break]
Professor Pater
Porsch: To be frank, this example seems erroneous—comparing
a
room, which I inhabit, to the body and its relationship with
the soul.
Vedavyasa:
[translating]
...example of this comparison with a room and the body
is not very good because he says...
Prabhupada:
But because he does not know that he is not this body.
Vedavyasa:
Yes, but he says because if we go out of the room, the
room remains as it is, but if we go out of the body, the body doesn't
remain. So he says there must be an intimate connection between the
soul and the body.
Prabhupada:
No, remains means in the same way. Just like if I
leave this room and it remains here, in a few years time it will be
destroyed. Similarly, if you leave this body, in a few hours... It is a
question of hours and years. [break]
Professor
Pater Porsch: As long as we live, soul and bodies comprise
a unit!
Vedavyasa:
[translating]...saying that this body is, the soul is a
unit.
Prabhupada:
The soul is different from the body.
Vedavyasa:
Yes, but at the same time, he says there must
be a very
intimate connection of, actually a oneness of body and soul. That is
what is now.
Prabhupada:
No, no.
Professor
Pater Porsch: As long as we are alive.
Prabhupada:
Yes. That is not oneness. Just like this room
is
important so long I am living. Otherwise it has no importance.
[break] ...soul is gone from the body, even the body is very dear, I
throw it away.
Vedavyasa:
He doesn't want to separate.
Prabhupada:
But you must separate. [laughter] As soon as
your
death comes, your body will be kicked out by your relatives.
Professor
Dürckheim: I think the difference is now
just one, that Professor Pater Porsch spoke about our lifetime, that
during our lifetime there is an
intimate unity between life and soul, as we experience it, and he now
has no doubt that the soul is something different of the body, and when
soul goes out, there is no life anymore.
Dr. P.J. Saher:
May I please add one thing? Perhaps it
makes a difference if the person thinks "I am the spirit. I have a
body." or he thinks, "I am a body, and I possess a soul." That is an
important point.
Prabhupada:
Yes, yes. That is his mistake, that he is body
and he
possesses soul. But not that. He is soul; he is covered by this body.
Another example. Just like your coat. So long you use it, it is
important. And if you don't use it, it has no importance. But if he
takes coat is very important... Important, it is important, so long you
use it. But if you don't use it—it is torn—you throw it away. You take
another coat.
Prof. Pater
Porsch: Can we not also say that self and not
self must
separate, either in death involuntarily, or through destiny.
Prabhupada:
Must separate, must separate.
Prof. Pater
Porsch: Either through death or destiny.
Prabhupada:
Yes, that is called death. You separate from
this
body; you accept another body. This period is called death. So
the body which you occupied previously, that is false now. Now the body
which you have occupied now, that is important now. So you are giving
stress on the body which I am changing after few years. That is the
problem, misunderstanding.
Professor
Dürckheim: I think it would be important
for us all to know
what you would say to the question, "How to realize the last truth, and
what do you mean by realize the eternal truth?"
Professor
Pater Porsch: I would like to give an example from the
Gospel of John, in order
to see the similarity. There it means, and that is a quasi definition:
"It is eternal
life that we recognize you." The life consists of recognizing the
Father.
Vedavyasa: [translating]
He said that in the Bible it is
said that our
aim
should be to know the Father.
Professor Pater Porsch:
Not only the aim, but the life
consists in
this: to
know the Father, God, by this... [indistinct]
Professor Dürckheim:
That is exactly what you say,
that real life, real
eternal life, means nothing but to recognize the Father in the son.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is
real business. And we have
created so
many unnecessary, superfluous business. We have set aside the real
business, to know the father. And that is the mistake of this
civilization.
Hansadutta: Professor
Dürckheim's question was: "Very
simply, what is our way or what is our method to realize the highest
truth, the absolute truth?" What is our process?
Prabhupada: The simplest
method is to associate with the
Father,
or the Absolute Truth. By association. This association can be
possible. God, His name, His form, His pastimes, His abode, His
paraphernalia, everything is God, because absolute. First of all you
should understand this Absolute Truth. Just like here in the relative
world the name of a person is different from the person. But in the
absolute world the name and the person the same. So we are teaching or
preaching this, that you chant the holy name of God, you associate
immediately with God. And if you associate immediately with God then
gradually you become Godly. The example is, just like you put one iron
rod in the fire it becomes warm, warmer, warmer and, at last, red-hot.
When it is red-hot, it is no longer iron rod, it is fire. Similarly, if
you simply associate with God then gradually you become Godly or or all
the qualities of God. Then you understand God and your life becomes
perfect.
Professor Dürckheim:
Do you mean communion with God
by way of the holy name of Krishna?
Prabhupada: Holy name of
God.
Professor Dürckheim:
Of God.
Prabhupada: If you don't
like to chant Krishna you
chant in your own way. Chant the name of God. If you know the name of
God chant it. If you do not know then take it from me. [laughter] We
are recommending to chant the holy name of God. If you know, you chant
that name and if you don't know then take it from me. [break]
...explained by Chaitanya Mahaprabhu that God has many thousands of
names or God has no name. No name means He has, He has got so many
thousands of millions of names that you cannot say, "This is only God's
name." This is one sense. But how God names are understood? The God
names are understood by His action. Just like we say
Krishna. Krishna means all-attractive.
God is all-attractive. God is attractive for the Hindus, for the
Muslim, for the Christians, for everyone. Therefore, being
all-attractive, there's a Sanskrit word of all-attraction, Krishna.
This is the explanation of the attribute of
God. Similarly, if you've got similar name which explains the
attributes of God, that is also God's name. I think Lord Jesus
Christ said "God, hallowed be Thy name."
Satsvarupa: The Lord's
Prayer: "Our Father, who art in
heaven,
hallowed be Thy name."
Prabhupada: So He has
name. You find out what is His name
and
chant it. And if you do not know, then take it from us. That is all. He
has name. He has name. He's not without name.
Professor
Pater Porsch: May I comment? It seems to me nearly the same
opinion as given in the Old Testament of the Jewish religion. If Christ
says, "Hallowed be Thy name", or if it means, "the names
of God be glorified", then it implies no definite name is given on
account of awe and reverence before God, so it is only an expression to
say "in Thy name". When Moses asked, "What is Your name?" There was no
other answer other than "I am, who am. I have actually no name
like the gods and idols." The meaning is to have power over a god if
His name is known.
Vedavyasa: [translating]
He says from the Old Testament that Jesus
said,
"Hallowed be Thy name," so he didn't say a particular name because, he
says, God has actually no name because if we...
Prabhupada: So how He
can be no name? He says, "Hallowed
be Thy
name." He has name. Therefore he says like that.
Vedavyasa: But there's
no name in the Bible...
Prabhupada: That doesn't
mean... He might not have
mentioned or
you have not noted. But when he says, "Hallowed be Thy name," there
must be the name. Therefore I said if you don't know the name, you take
it from us. That is intelligence. Why should you say that there is no
name. He says the "Hallowed be Thy name." There must be name but you do
not know.
Professor
Pater Porsch: Name of God, this expression actually stands
for God in Judaic tradition,
because one wants to keep respectful distance from God.
Vedavyasa: [translating]
He thinks that it's purposely done not to
say
the name
of God, to...
Prabhupada: Because
there is name, you find out.
Vedavyasa: He said that
when it says, "Hallowed be Thy
name," it's
meant in this way: that there's no mention of a particular name to be
respected...
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. So
that we say that God has no
particular
name. But according to His action His name is there. Just like
Krishna. Krishna is not the name.
Krishna means all-attractiveness.
Professor Dürckheim:
Just as Buddha is not a name.
Prabhupada: Hm. Because
He's man of knowledge, therefore
He's
called Buddha.
Dr. P. J. Saher: The one
who has reached...
Prabhupada: Buddha. Buddha means
one who has perfect
knowledge.
Professor Dürckheim:
Buddha is not a name of
somebody, yes.
Prabhupada: Just like
you say, "Hallowed be Thy name."
President.
President. Now the president has a name but you do not know. But the
president must have a name. [German] Previous
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