Devotee (1): [speaking of the winding up of
the universe] So that's how it goes back into the body of Maha-Vishnu?
Prabhupada: Yes. Just like
Svarup Damodar: The
scientists also say
that the universe is expanding.
Prabhupada: That is the
nature. Just like your body, my body, we came from a seed. [indistinct]
Unlimited expansion. There are so many examples. Just like the boys
play with soap [indistinct].
Svarup Damodar: Yes, soap
Prabhupada: The bubble. It is
expanded and popped. It is like that. Krishna says [Sanskrit] ashashvatam
(temporary), and we are seeing, experiencing every day. So why should
we spoil our life by making adjustment in this popped universe? It will
be popped, and all arrangement phat. Everyone knows it. Such a
nice city of Los Angeles, there is no guarantee. Within a second, it
can be inundated, go within the womb of this ocean.
Jayatirtha: You can get any
kind of insurance on a building here in Los Angeles but the only kind,
it's so expensive, no one can afford, is earthquake insurance. Hardly
anyone will write earthquake insurance because they have such a fear
that the earthquake will come at any time, and no one wants to gamble
their money on someone else's building, that it will not fall apart in
an earthquake. The threefold miseries are always a factor. No one can
Prabhupada: We go this way?
Svarup Damodar: The relative
[indistinct] between the earth and the...
They say that this is utopian. But when they speak of "we are going to
send some [indistinct] in a capsule and it will reach, and after ten
thousand years it will come out," are these not utopian? They will make
a station, [indistinct] station, and [indistinct]. All these are
practical or utopian? What is the opposite word of utopian?
Jayatirtha: Pragmatic means
practical, and utopian means idealistic concept. [indistinct] So many
people are suffering here, famine, so many things, and they're spending
so many millions of dollars. [indistinct] anyway.
Prabhupada: Why the
scientists cannot make it straight?
Svarup Damodar: Ideality is
assumed in many scientific theories.
Svarup Damodar: Ideality of
certain laws of certain matter, they assume it.
Prabhupada: Are they not
Svarup Damodar: But they take
it as facts. For example...
Prabhupada: So you take it
your things as fact, we take our fact. Why do you say my things
utopian, yours fact? Similarly, I can say my fact, your utopian.
Svarup Damodar: For example,
in chemical elements, the elements like helium, neon, argon, these are
called inert gasses, these are called ideal gasses, because they behave
ideally under the assumptions of scientific theories. It fits perfectly
well to their theory, so they call these gasses ideal gasses. And
gasses like oxygen, hydrogen, and nitrogen, these are nonideal gasses
because they do not behave properly like helium or neon. So the
[indistinct], first they develop the theory from these ideal gasses,
and then when the theory doesn't fit to the gasses, like hydrogen and
oxygen, they modify it. So they call these are nonideal gasses. So
accordingly the theory is modified. They put certain numbers to adjust
their modifications. So in all..., most scientific theories, they
develop something that is called ideal; and from that ideality, they
extrapolate these so-called other theories. That is almost in all
...planet, Vaikuntha planet, and Krishna comes to show us the ideal
place in Vrindavana. The sample Vrindavana is here. So why do you say
it is utopian?
Ideal. The material world isn't very ideal.
Prabhupada: That is the
imitation of the ideal.
Jayatirtha: Some people are
trying to make it ideal, trying to make this place ideal.
Prabhupada: There must be
something ideal; otherwise how they will try to make it ideal? They are
trying to be immortal. Unless there is something immortal, how they...
Svarup Damodar: The actual
ideality is there.
Prabhupada: That is explained
in Bhagavatam: satyam param dhimahi [
Srimad Bhagavatam 1.1.1]. Finally proof.
Svarup Damodar: If there
would be no ideality, the scientists cannot think about ideality itself.
Devotee (1): [indistinct]...
Think about the concept of living eternally because this was the
teaching of the church that I was going to. And I used to become very
frightened at having to go on and on forever because I couldn't imagine
what I'd be doing during all that time. I used to try to put some end
to it all. Now in Krishna consciousness, we understand that eternity is
filled up with ideal activities and that eternal life is very blissful
and full of knowledge. This concept is not there in any other teaching.
Prabhupada: The scientist
says there is no life after death.
Svarup Damodar: No, they do
not know that. They do not say also, they do not know that. They do not
say that there is not life after death because they do not know.
Devotee (1): There is one
plan to freeze people at the time of death. This is actually going on
now—to be awoken out of such frozen state when the science is
Prabhupada: That means there
is no life. If you want to keep it frozen, that means after this body
there is no life.
Svarup Damodar: No, it
doesn't, because they want to study. For example, the brain of the
advanced scientist, they want to study how his brain is different from
ordinary people. So they can do some studies, research, on different
bodies, parts of the bodies, just to differentiate why this body is
different from the so many bodies.
Prabhupada: There is
differentiation. That's a fact. Differentiation, that is visible
because [indistinct] more nicely than me, you must have more brain. But
the brain is not acting independently. That they do not know. They take
brain, they are going to study—that is another foolishness, another
rascaldom. Still they are passing on as scientists. Just like ordinary
machine and a complicated machine. The machine has to be worked by
somebody. Not that because it is highly developed valuable machine it
works automatically. This simple thing these rascals they do not
understand. You may have got a very big nice machine, I may not have.
But either good machine or bad machine, it must be worked by you or by
me. Where is that me and you? And they are trying to understand the
machine itself only. Such rascaldom.
Svarup Damodar: That's why
Prabhupada: They are keeping
the machine. What you will study the machine? Machine, according to his
karma, that particular person this machine is given by
God. Just like if you pay good price, you get a good machine.
Similarly, bhramayan sarva-bhutani yantrarudhani mayaya [Bhagavad-gita
18.61]. So God is supplying him the machine and the circumstances to
work. They do not find out the man who is working on the machine; they
are studying the machine. Such a foolish attempt.
Svarup Damodar: So they work
only with matter, so they forget about spirit.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is
their folly. Therefore, they are rascal. That is described in the Bhagavata,
yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke, sa eva go-kharah
[Srimad-Bhagavatam 10.84.13]. They are animals, so what
knowledge we can expect from these rascal animals? They are animals.
They may pass on as big, big scientist to another animal, but they
cannot pass on as big scientist to us.
Svarup Damodar: They have to
be spiritualized to pass.
Prabhupada: We... Anyone who
is simply understanding this matter, we immediately accept him as an
animal, that's all. The animals take it.
Svarup Damodar: But majority
of the people are all like that.
Prabhupada: So, therefore,
they are all animals. Fools, rascals. Abodha-jato, they have
been described—all rascals, fools. Parabhavas tavad abodha-jato
yavan na jijnasata atma. So long they do not come to the point
of understanding spirit soul, they are simply rascals. And whatever
they are doing, simply being defeated actually. The so-called
scientific research, simply their defeat. What they have gained? That
is stated in
Bhagavata. Parabhava. Parabhava means defeat. So
long they do not come to the understanding of self, the spirit soul,
they are simply rascals and fools. And what the rascals and fools can
become victorious? They will never become victorious. They will always
be subdued by the laws of nature. Parabhava, defeat simply.
Whatever scientific discoveries, there is simply defeat, not
conquering. That old scientist, he could not check his old age, so what
is the value of his scientific discoveries? He could not check his
growing in age, so what is the value of scientific advancement? He will
die. They cannot check death, they cannot check old age. Nobody can
check death. Then what is advancement? The real problems are there. Parabhavas
tavad. Parabhava, simply defeat, wasting time being
defeated by the laws of nature. They cannot understand anything
Svarup Damodar: Then why
don't they search for real knowledge?
Prabhupada: Therefore, they
are rascal. Why they are rascal? They will not take real knowledge.
Just like children: obstinate. The father says, "Don't touch, don't
touch this." But he says, "No, touch," and he touches. As soon as he
touches it, he [makes noise like one in pain].
Svarup Damodar: Burned.
Prabhupada: That is their
foolishness. They will not take the experience of Krishna; they will
manufacture their own experience. That is their folly. Therefore, they
are called..., they have been addressed as mudhah. Na
mam dushkritino mudhah prapadyante naradhamah [Bhagavad-gita
7.15]. Lowest of the mankind, mudhah, they do not surrender
[indistinct]. They will not take the intelligence given by Krishna.
They will manufacture their own intelligence. This is their folly.
Therefore, they are rascals. Our process is all the big acharyas,
they are taking knowledge from Krishna, Vyasadeva, Krishna's
representative or guru. That is our process. And they
[referring to the scientists] are manufacturing their own knowledge.
They do not know the system; they take it as dogmatic. Just like we
speak of Vaikuntha from experienced knowledge. They will not believe
it. But they do not know what are these planets, still they will not
believe it. They cannot say anything except their home planet. Even
they do not know what are the... They have not studied all the corners
of this planet. Therefore, they sometimes say, "Oh, this discovery,
this is our first discovery." Discovery means they do not know so many
things. That is discovery. When they come to know, "Oh, it is working
like this, [indistinct]." But the things are there. So they do not know
so many things, still they are scientists.
Svarup Damodar: They cannot
think so many things because they are concentrated in a small area of
even their own...
Prabhupada: Yes, that is we
call kupa-manduka-nyaya(?), the frog, Dr. Frog of the well. He
cannot conceive what is Atlantic Ocean, but still he will theorize,
"Atlantic Ocean may be so big, so big, so big." What experience you can
get Atlantic Ocean living in a three-foot well? That is going on. And
if I ask you, "What is the measurement of the space?" You cannot say
that. You cannot say that. But there is measurement [indistinct]. It
may be unlimited for you, but as it is a created thing, there must be
measurement. Any created thing has measurement. Unless they agree to
submit... They must submit. Just like you have submitted, you are
[indistinct], so you can understand God. This is the only
qualification. Therefore, Krishna says, sarva-dharman parityajya
mam ekam [Bhagavad-gita 18.66], "First of all
submit, rascal, then I shall (indistinct), you will be able to
understand the truth." There is no possibility of understanding the
whole thing by challenge. That is [indistinct]. Their only challenge
Svarup Damodar: They are
challenging the nature.
Svarup Damodar: They are
challenging the nature itself.
Prabhupada: Nature, they
cannot even challenging nature; they cannot understand the nature. And
behind nature, there is God. So what they will understand God? They
cannot understand the curtain by which God is hidden, and what they
will understand God? This is a curtain. Naham prakashah
sarvasya/ yoga-maya-samavritah [Bhagavad-gita
7.25]. Mat-sthani sarva-bhutani [Bhagavad-gita
9.4]. Just like this planet, this universe, everything is resting on
Him, but He cannot be found. Just like if you sit down on this chair,
on this bench, I can see the bench you are sitting. But this whole
universe is floating on something, but you cannot see on which it is
floating. You are so limited. This universe is floating on water, just
like [indistinct]. Yah karanarnava-jale bhajati sma yoga-nidram
anantam ashesha-bhutam, vishnur mahan sa iha yasya kala-vishesho
govindam adi-purusham tam aham bhajami [Brahma-samhita
5.47]. Each and every universe is coming out of the pores in the body
of Vishnu, Maha-Vishnu. Just like an infected person, he distributes
infection by breathing. Is it not?
Svarup Damodar: Yes.
Prabhupada: Similarly, these
universes are coming from the breathing of the Maha-Vishnu, and again
it will wind up when it is inhaled. This is creation. So what they will
understand? But we understand because we take the knowledge from
experience. Here is experienced knowledge[?]. They will simply bluff,
"Yes, we are trying. In future we shall know." That's all.
Svarup Damodar: They are
always hoping against hope, then trying to do something every time.
Prabhupada: That is
Svarup Damodar: Even when
experiments fail so many times, ten times, twenty times, still they are
hoping, "Oh, this time I will get it." They do it.
This is called durashaya. Durashaya ye bahir
-artha-maninah. Everything is explained. They are called durashaya,
hope against hope, but it will never be fulfilled.
Devotee (1): I've talked with
some so-called educated people, they are impressed by Vedic cosmology,
the concept of [indistinct].
Devotee (1): They are
impressed by what is called Vedic cosmology, how they knew five
thousand years ago about the situation of planets. But then when you
get personal, you tell how these planets are coming, then they will not
accept. But they are impressed by the stature of the knowledge that is
Svarup Damodar: The
astronomers and the cosmologists, they define the universe in three
definitions. And according to their own..., they say the visible space,
the universe, they say this is their laboratory for their research to
find out the unlimited expanding universe. So this is their laboratory
for their... So they call..., this is called observable universe, the
universe that can be observed and perceived by instruments. Then
another definition of universe they call unlimited. That includes the
observable plus everything that is not observable. And the third aspect
they call physical universe. That means this universe can be studied by
physical laws, mathematics, physics. So they call these are physical
universe. So based on these...
Prabhupada: So how they can
say beyond this universe there is no other?
Svarup Damodar: They cannot
say that. They still say that there is unlimited aspects that increase
for the visible as well as...
Svarup Damodar: Yes.
Jayatirtha: They think that
that which they can't perceive they can understand by mathematical laws
and physical laws. They just discovered about the laws.
Prabhupada: But there are so
many laws, infinitum. The divisions, [indistinct] infinitum.
Svarup Damodar: Actually, all
physical laws are discovered by mathematics. Beyond our imagination.
Prabhupada: Just like in our
childhood we were thinking a gramophone machine, how it can speak
without a man? There must be a man within.
Svarup Damodar: So everything
comes to Srila Prabhupada's..., that nice comment on the frog's
philosophy, Dr. Frog. That is I think what's happening.
Jayatirtha: Just like that
man who was searching for the touchstone in the garbage heap
[indistinct]. How will I find a touchstone in the garbage heap?
[indistinct] story on college campuses.
Svarup Damodar: I put some
posters in the campus for Long Beach engagement. Somebody was asking
me, "What is this knowledge, transcendental knowledge?" "You should
come and find out. Please come and find out."
Prabhupada: Physics has
nothing to do with spirit. [break] ...manufacture the subtle(?) parts
of motorcar, easily you can go. So this rascal thinking this is
advancement, says, "I am killing the soul. The soul is going to become
a dog next life after riding motorcar." That is written, and they have
no knowledge. But because you have advanced from bullock cart to
motorcar, this is.... So rascal they are. They have no knowledge what
is the time?
Jayatirtha: It's quarter to
seven, thirteen minutes to seven.
advancement of material science
really means to complicate the problems of life.
Prabhupada: That's all,
increasing the problem. They have to dig out petroleum oil from the
midst of the ocean. Is it easy job?
Prabhupada: But they will do
it because they have got motorcars, they must find out petrol.
Svarup Damodar: That's why
they are called development of new departments of knowledge. With the
rise of necessity, they develop new departments of searching out the
Prabhupada: What is the use
of this development? It will be problem after all. What is the use of
Svarup Damodar: They fail to
see that point.
Prabhupada: That means they
are rascals. They do not have clear eyesight, clear insight. They do
not know whether they are degrading or developing. Just like the flies,
with great force they will go into the fire. They think they are making
progress, they are going to the light. They think; otherwise how they
are going? Such kind of advancement. They are going to die, be
annihilated, and they still, "Oh, we are going force, by force we are
going to the light. Here is darkness, there is light." This is their
philosophy. Just like a mad driver drinking drives recklessly to die,
that's all. But he is thinking, "Oh, I am going with so much great
speed." He does not know that he is going to die after few minutes. And
that is their development.
Svarup Damodar: Same thing
when they discovered atomic bomb, they did not know what's going to
happen. This Einstein proposed the equation that a small mass can be
converted to a tremendous amount of energy, like his equation that
energy is equal to the mass times the square of the velocity of light.
So he from his theory found that this is happening, this is a physical
law. So if we have a small amount of mass, and if we subject to this
equation, then there will be a tremendous amount of energy. But later
on it happened that they used the knowledge in the wrong direction. So
many people got killed. And at the moment, the so-called genetic
Prabhupada: That also they do
not understand properly, because they do not see the spiritual energy.
Just like we know that within this body there is a small bit of
spiritual energy, spark, which is ten thousand part of the tip of the
hair. How small it is. But due to its presence within the body, the
body is working so nicely. We know that, that how a small particle of
spiritual energy can work so wonderfully. They do not know it.
Svarup Damodar: So nowadays
the scientists are also thinking that there have been so many mistakes,
Prabhupada: They will find
Svarup Damodar: So they say
atomic energy, this bombing, was a tremendous mistake on the part of
the... They say this mostly responsible by politicians, not on the part
of scientists, the scientists say. But on the other hand, the public
say, people say, the scientists are responsible because they discovered
Prabhupada: Yes, they are
responsible. If you give a sharpened razor in the hands of a child, the
child will cut here and there. So who is responsible: the parent or the
Svarup Damodar: Parent.
Prabhupada: So the rascal
scientist is responsible for giving such things in the hands of the
rascals. Politicians are the most rascal; the most scoundrel, they go
to politics. Politician means a tenth-class man. No first-class man
goes to politics. Suppose if somebody says to me that "You come and
become president." Why shall I go there? What can I do there? I know I
shall not be able to do anything, so why shall I take the post?
Jayatirtha: They just like to
lord it over.
Prabhupada: Yes. I cannot
say... Suppose if I become president, and if I want to say that stop
this slaughterhouse, immediately I will be removed. So I cannot do
anything, even if I become president, so why shall I accept this post?
No sane man, no gentleman will go to the post because he knows he will
not be able to do anything for the welfare of the public.
Jayatirtha: They're so
Prabhupada: So corrupt.
[indistinct] Even one wants to do... just like President Kennedy, he
wanted to do something good—he was shot down. Gandhi wanted to do
something—he was shot down. So the politics is so corrupted that as
soon as you are prepared to do something actually, you will be killed.
Svarup Damodar: So seeing
that mistake also, now the scientists, they are proposing that they
should make a governing body, not the politicians, so when they
discover something the result can be completely controlled by this
Prabhupada: That is another
foolishness. That is another foolishness. They will be bribed and they
will vote. They will get money, that's all.
Svarup Damodar: Another thing
that is coming up is genetic engineering, which they are afraid about,
just like they say remember like atomic bomb incident. The politicians
will utilize the...
Prabhupada: So why they
discover all these nonsense and waste their time? Why do they not
discover something which will stop all problems of life—no death, no
disease. Why do they do not know? They are also rascals, combination of
rascals. Why do they expend their energy and intelligence for this
nonsense purpose? [break] ...
which will be reduced.
Jayatirtha: They want to
discover things just for the sake of knowing them, just because
everything should be known.
Prabhupada: That is described
in shastra, kevala-bodha-labdhaye, just for the
matter of knowing, never mind it will be disastrous. Why don't you try
to know something which will not be disastrous -- beneficial? But that
they have not. That you have no power to know that. Why don't you try
to know God? Why trying to know something disastrous? What is this?