Reckless Driving and Reckless Science

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Devotee (1): [speaking of the winding up of the universe] So that's how it goes back into the body of Maha-Vishnu?

Prabhupada: Yes. Just like football. [indistinct]

Svarup Damodar: The scientists also say that the universe is expanding.

Prabhupada: That is the nature. Just like your body, my body, we came from a seed. [indistinct] Unlimited expansion. There are so many examples. Just like the boys play with soap [indistinct].

Svarup Damodar: Yes, soap bubble.

Prabhupada: The bubble. It is expanded and popped. It is like that. Krishna says [Sanskrit] ashashvatam (temporary), and we are seeing, experiencing every day. So why should we spoil our life by making adjustment in this popped universe? It will be popped, and all arrangement phat. Everyone knows it. Such a nice city of Los Angeles, there is no guarantee. Within a second, it can be inundated, go within the womb of this ocean.

Jayatirtha: You can get any kind of insurance on a building here in Los Angeles but the only kind, it's so expensive, no one can afford, is earthquake insurance. Hardly anyone will write earthquake insurance because they have such a fear that the earthquake will come at any time, and no one wants to gamble their money on someone else's building, that it will not fall apart in an earthquake. The threefold miseries are always a factor. No one can avoid them.

Prabhupada: We go this way?

Svarup Damodar: The relative [indistinct] between the earth and the...

Prabhupada: [indistinct]... They say that this is utopian. But when they speak of "we are going to send some [indistinct] in a capsule and it will reach, and after ten thousand years it will come out," are these not utopian? They will make a station, [indistinct] station, and [indistinct]. All these are practical or utopian? What is the opposite word of utopian?

Jayatirtha: Pragmatic.

Prabhupada: Pragmatic?

Jayatirtha: Pragmatic means practical, and utopian means idealistic concept. [indistinct] So many people are suffering here, famine, so many things, and they're spending so many millions of dollars. [indistinct] anyway.

Prabhupada: Why the scientists cannot make it straight?

Svarup Damodar: Ideality is assumed in many scientific theories.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Svarup Damodar: Ideality of certain laws of certain matter, they assume it.

Prabhupada: Are they not utopian?

Svarup Damodar: But they take it as facts. For example...

Prabhupada: So you take it your things as fact, we take our fact. Why do you say my things utopian, yours fact? Similarly, I can say my fact, your utopian.

Svarup Damodar: For example, in chemical elements, the elements like helium, neon, argon, these are called inert gasses, these are called ideal gasses, because they behave ideally under the assumptions of scientific theories. It fits perfectly well to their theory, so they call these gasses ideal gasses. And gasses like oxygen, hydrogen, and nitrogen, these are nonideal gasses because they do not behave properly like helium or neon. So the [indistinct], first they develop the theory from these ideal gasses, and then when the theory doesn't fit to the gasses, like hydrogen and oxygen, they modify it. So they call these are nonideal gasses. So accordingly the theory is modified. They put certain numbers to adjust their modifications. So in all..., most scientific theories, they develop something that is called ideal; and from that ideality, they extrapolate these so-called other theories. That is almost in all scientific theories.

Prabhupada: (break) ...planet, Vaikuntha planet, and Krishna comes to show us the ideal place in Vrindavana. The sample Vrindavana is here. So why do you say it is utopian?

Jayatirtha: [indistinct] Ideal. The material world isn't very ideal.

Prabhupada: That is the imitation of the ideal.

Jayatirtha: Some people are trying to make it ideal, trying to make this place ideal.

Prabhupada: There must be something ideal; otherwise how they will try to make it ideal? They are trying to be immortal. Unless there is something immortal, how they...

Svarup Damodar: The actual ideality is there.

Prabhupada: That is explained in Bhagavatam: satyam param dhimahi [ Srimad Bhagavatam 1.1.1]. Finally proof.

Svarup Damodar: If there would be no ideality, the scientists cannot think about ideality itself.

Devotee (1): [indistinct]... Think about the concept of living eternally because this was the teaching of the church that I was going to. And I used to become very frightened at having to go on and on forever because I couldn't imagine what I'd be doing during all that time. I used to try to put some end to it all. Now in Krishna consciousness, we understand that eternity is filled up with ideal activities and that eternal life is very blissful and full of knowledge. This concept is not there in any other teaching. [indistinct]

Prabhupada: The scientist says there is no life after death.

Svarup Damodar: No, they do not know that. They do not say also, they do not know that. They do not say that there is not life after death because they do not know.

Devotee (1): There is one plan to freeze people at the time of death. This is actually going on now—to be awoken out of such frozen state when the science is advanced...

Prabhupada: That means there is no life. If you want to keep it frozen, that means after this body there is no life.

Svarup Damodar: No, it doesn't, because they want to study. For example, the brain of the advanced scientist, they want to study how his brain is different from ordinary people. So they can do some studies, research, on different bodies, parts of the bodies, just to differentiate why this body is different from the so many bodies.

Prabhupada: There is differentiation. That's a fact. Differentiation, that is visible because [indistinct] more nicely than me, you must have more brain. But the brain is not acting independently. That they do not know. They take brain, they are going to study—that is another foolishness, another rascaldom. Still they are passing on as scientists. Just like ordinary machine and a complicated machine. The machine has to be worked by somebody. Not that because it is highly developed valuable machine it works automatically. This simple thing these rascals they do not understand. You may have got a very big nice machine, I may not have. But either good machine or bad machine, it must be worked by you or by me. Where is that me and you? And they are trying to understand the machine itself only. Such rascaldom.

Svarup Damodar: That's why they...

Prabhupada: They are keeping the machine. What you will study the machine? Machine, according to his karma, that particular person this machine is given by God. Just like if you pay good price, you get a good machine. Similarly, bhramayan sarva-bhutani yantrarudhani mayaya [Bhagavad-gita 18.61]. So God is supplying him the machine and the circumstances to work. They do not find out the man who is working on the machine; they are studying the machine. Such a foolish attempt.

Svarup Damodar: So they work only with matter, so they forget about spirit.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is their folly. Therefore, they are rascal. That is described in the Bhagavata, yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke, sa eva go-kharah [Srimad-Bhagavatam 10.84.13]. They are animals, so what knowledge we can expect from these rascal animals? They are animals. They may pass on as big, big scientist to another animal, but they cannot pass on as big scientist to us.

Svarup Damodar: They have to be spiritualized to pass.

Prabhupada: We... Anyone who is simply understanding this matter, we immediately accept him as an animal, that's all. The animals take it.

Svarup Damodar: But majority of the people are all like that.

Prabhupada: So, therefore, they are all animals. Fools, rascals. Abodha-jato, they have been described—all rascals, fools. Parabhavas tavad abodha-jato yavan na jijnasata atma. So long they do not come to the point of understanding spirit soul, they are simply rascals. And whatever they are doing, simply being defeated actually. The so-called scientific research, simply their defeat. What they have gained? That is stated in Bhagavata. Parabhava. Parabhava means defeat. So long they do not come to the understanding of self, the spirit soul, they are simply rascals and fools. And what the rascals and fools can become victorious? They will never become victorious. They will always be subdued by the laws of nature. Parabhava, defeat simply. Whatever scientific discoveries, there is simply defeat, not conquering. That old scientist, he could not check his old age, so what is the value of his scientific discoveries? He could not check his growing in age, so what is the value of scientific advancement? He will die. They cannot check death, they cannot check old age. Nobody can check death. Then what is advancement? The real problems are there. Parabhavas tavad. Parabhava, simply defeat, wasting time being defeated by the laws of nature. They cannot understand anything properly.

Svarup Damodar: Then why don't they search for real knowledge?

Prabhupada: Therefore, they are rascal. Why they are rascal? They will not take real knowledge. Just like children: obstinate. The father says, "Don't touch, don't touch this." But he says, "No, touch," and he touches. As soon as he touches it, he [makes noise like one in pain].

Svarup Damodar: Burned.

Prabhupada: That is their foolishness. They will not take the experience of Krishna; they will manufacture their own experience. That is their folly. Therefore, they are called..., they have been addressed as mudhah. Na mam dushkritino mudhah prapadyante naradhamah [Bhagavad-gita 7.15]. Lowest of the mankind, mudhah, they do not surrender [indistinct]. They will not take the intelligence given by Krishna. They will manufacture their own intelligence. This is their folly. Therefore, they are rascals. Our process is all the big acharyas, they are taking knowledge from Krishna, Vyasadeva, Krishna's representative or guru. That is our process. And they [referring to the scientists] are manufacturing their own knowledge. They do not know the system; they take it as dogmatic. Just like we speak of Vaikuntha from experienced knowledge. They will not believe it. But they do not know what are these planets, still they will not believe it. They cannot say anything except their home planet. Even they do not know what are the... They have not studied all the corners of this planet. Therefore, they sometimes say, "Oh, this discovery, this is our first discovery." Discovery means they do not know so many things. That is discovery. When they come to know, "Oh, it is working like this, [indistinct]." But the things are there. So they do not know so many things, still they are scientists.

Svarup Damodar: They cannot think so many things because they are concentrated in a small area of even their own...

Prabhupada: Yes, that is we call kupa-manduka-nyaya(?), the frog, Dr. Frog of the well. He cannot conceive what is Atlantic Ocean, but still he will theorize, "Atlantic Ocean may be so big, so big, so big." What experience you can get Atlantic Ocean living in a three-foot well? That is going on. And if I ask you, "What is the measurement of the space?" You cannot say that. You cannot say that. But there is measurement [indistinct]. It may be unlimited for you, but as it is a created thing, there must be measurement. Any created thing has measurement. Unless they agree to submit... They must submit. Just like you have submitted, you are [indistinct], so you can understand God. This is the only qualification. Therefore, Krishna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam [Bhagavad-gita 18.66], "First of all submit, rascal, then I shall (indistinct), you will be able to understand the truth." There is no possibility of understanding the whole thing by challenge. That is [indistinct]. Their only challenge [indistinct].

Svarup Damodar: They are challenging the nature.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Svarup Damodar: They are challenging the nature itself.

Prabhupada: Nature, they cannot even challenging nature; they cannot understand the nature. And behind nature, there is God. So what they will understand God? They cannot understand the curtain by which God is hidden, and what they will understand God? This is a curtain. Naham prakashah sarvasya/ yoga-maya-samavritah [Bhagavad-gita 7.25]. Mat-sthani sarva-bhutani [Bhagavad-gita 9.4]. Just like this planet, this universe, everything is resting on Him, but He cannot be found. Just like if you sit down on this chair, on this bench, I can see the bench you are sitting. But this whole universe is floating on something, but you cannot see on which it is floating. You are so limited. This universe is floating on water, just like [indistinct]. Yah karanarnava-jale bhajati sma yoga-nidram anantam ashesha-bhutam, vishnur mahan sa iha yasya kala-vishesho govindam adi-purusham tam aham bhajami [Brahma-samhita 5.47]. Each and every universe is coming out of the pores in the body of Vishnu, Maha-Vishnu. Just like an infected person, he distributes infection by breathing. Is it not?

Svarup Damodar: Yes.

Prabhupada: Similarly, these universes are coming from the breathing of the Maha-Vishnu, and again it will wind up when it is inhaled. This is creation. So what they will understand? But we understand because we take the knowledge from experience. Here is experienced knowledge[?]. They will simply bluff, "Yes, we are trying. In future we shall know." That's all.

Svarup Damodar: They are always hoping against hope, then trying to do something every time.

Prabhupada: That is foolishness.

Svarup Damodar: Even when experiments fail so many times, ten times, twenty times, still they are hoping, "Oh, this time I will get it." They do it.

Prabhupada: Durashaya. This is called durashaya. Durashaya ye bahir -artha-maninah. Everything is explained. They are called durashaya, hope against hope, but it will never be fulfilled.

Devotee (1): I've talked with some so-called educated people, they are impressed by Vedic cosmology, the concept of [indistinct].

Prabhupada: Eh?

Devotee (1): They are impressed by what is called Vedic cosmology, how they knew five thousand years ago about the situation of planets. But then when you get personal, you tell how these planets are coming, then they will not accept. But they are impressed by the stature of the knowledge that is there.

Svarup Damodar: The astronomers and the cosmologists, they define the universe in three definitions. And according to their own..., they say the visible space, the universe, they say this is their laboratory for their research to find out the unlimited expanding universe. So this is their laboratory for their... So they call..., this is called observable universe, the universe that can be observed and perceived by instruments. Then another definition of universe they call unlimited. That includes the observable plus everything that is not observable. And the third aspect they call physical universe. That means this universe can be studied by physical laws, mathematics, physics. So they call these are physical universe. So based on these...

Prabhupada: So how they can say beyond this universe there is no other?

Svarup Damodar: They cannot say that. They still say that there is unlimited aspects that increase for the visible as well as...

Prabhupada: Invisible.

Svarup Damodar: Yes.

Jayatirtha: They think that that which they can't perceive they can understand by mathematical laws and physical laws. They just discovered about the laws.

Prabhupada: But there are so many laws, infinitum. The divisions, [indistinct] infinitum.

Svarup Damodar: Actually, all physical laws are discovered by mathematics. Beyond our imagination.

Prabhupada: Just like in our childhood we were thinking a gramophone machine, how it can speak without a man? There must be a man within.

Svarup Damodar: So everything comes to Srila Prabhupada's..., that nice comment on the frog's philosophy, Dr. Frog. That is I think what's happening.

Jayatirtha: Just like that man who was searching for the touchstone in the garbage heap [indistinct]. How will I find a touchstone in the garbage heap? [indistinct] story on college campuses.

Svarup Damodar: I put some posters in the campus for Long Beach engagement. Somebody was asking me, "What is this knowledge, transcendental knowledge?" "You should come and find out. Please come and find out."

Prabhupada: Physics has nothing to do with spirit. [break] ...manufacture the subtle(?) parts of motorcar, easily you can go. So this rascal thinking this is advancement, says, "I am killing the soul. The soul is going to become a dog next life after riding motorcar." That is written, and they have no knowledge. But because you have advanced from bullock cart to motorcar, this is.... So rascal they are. They have no knowledge what is advancement.

What is the time?

Jayatirtha: It's quarter to seven, thirteen minutes to seven.

The advancement of material science really means to complicate the problems of life.

Prabhupada: That's all, increasing the problem. They have to dig out petroleum oil from the midst of the ocean. Is it easy job?

Jayatirtha: No.

Prabhupada: But they will do it because they have got motorcars, they must find out petrol.

Svarup Damodar: That's why they are called development of new departments of knowledge. With the rise of necessity, they develop new departments of searching out the unknown.

Prabhupada: What is the use of this development? It will be problem after all. What is the use of such knowledge?

Svarup Damodar: They fail to see that point.

Prabhupada: That means they are rascals. They do not have clear eyesight, clear insight. They do not know whether they are degrading or developing. Just like the flies, with great force they will go into the fire. They think they are making progress, they are going to the light. They think; otherwise how they are going? Such kind of advancement. They are going to die, be annihilated, and they still, "Oh, we are going force, by force we are going to the light. Here is darkness, there is light." This is their philosophy. Just like a mad driver drinking drives recklessly to die, that's all. But he is thinking, "Oh, I am going with so much great speed." He does not know that he is going to die after few minutes. And that is their development.

Svarup Damodar: Same thing when they discovered atomic bomb, they did not know what's going to happen. This Einstein proposed the equation that a small mass can be converted to a tremendous amount of energy, like his equation that energy is equal to the mass times the square of the velocity of light. So he from his theory found that this is happening, this is a physical law. So if we have a small amount of mass, and if we subject to this equation, then there will be a tremendous amount of energy. But later on it happened that they used the knowledge in the wrong direction. So many people got killed. And at the moment, the so-called genetic engineering...

Prabhupada: That also they do not understand properly, because they do not see the spiritual energy. Just like we know that within this body there is a small bit of spiritual energy, spark, which is ten thousand part of the tip of the hair. How small it is. But due to its presence within the body, the body is working so nicely. We know that, that how a small particle of spiritual energy can work so wonderfully. They do not know it.

Svarup Damodar: So nowadays the scientists are also thinking that there have been so many mistakes, so...

Prabhupada: They will find out.

Svarup Damodar: So they say that this atomic energy, this bombing, was a tremendous mistake on the part of the... They say this mostly responsible by politicians, not on the part of scientists, the scientists say. But on the other hand, the public say, people say, the scientists are responsible because they discovered the...

Prabhupada: Yes, they are responsible. If you give a sharpened razor in the hands of a child, the child will cut here and there. So who is responsible: the parent or the child?

Svarup Damodar: Parent.

Prabhupada: So the rascal scientist is responsible for giving such things in the hands of the rascals. Politicians are the most rascal; the most scoundrel, they go to politics. Politician means a tenth-class man. No first-class man goes to politics. Suppose if somebody says to me that "You come and become president." Why shall I go there? What can I do there? I know I shall not be able to do anything, so why shall I take the post?

Jayatirtha: They just like to lord it over.

Prabhupada: Yes. I cannot say... Suppose if I become president, and if I want to say that stop this slaughterhouse, immediately I will be removed. So I cannot do anything, even if I become president, so why shall I accept this post? No sane man, no gentleman will go to the post because he knows he will not be able to do anything for the welfare of the public.

Jayatirtha: They're so corrupt.

Prabhupada: So corrupt. [indistinct] Even one wants to do... just like President Kennedy, he wanted to do something good—he was shot down. Gandhi wanted to do something—he was shot down. So the politics is so corrupted that as soon as you are prepared to do something actually, you will be killed.

Svarup Damodar: So seeing that mistake also, now the scientists, they are proposing that they should make a governing body, not the politicians, so when they discover something the result can be completely controlled by this group of...

Prabhupada: That is another foolishness. That is another foolishness. They will be bribed and they will vote. They will get money, that's all.

Svarup Damodar: Another thing that is coming up is genetic engineering, which they are afraid about, just like they say remember like atomic bomb incident. The politicians will utilize the...

Prabhupada: So why they discover all these nonsense and waste their time? Why do they not discover something which will stop all problems of life—no death, no disease. Why do they do not know? They are also rascals, combination of rascals. Why do they expend their energy and intelligence for this nonsense purpose? [break] ... which will be reduced.

Jayatirtha: They want to discover things just for the sake of knowing them, just because everything should be known.

Prabhupada: That is described in shastra, kevala-bodha-labdhaye, just for the matter of knowing, never mind it will be disastrous. Why don't you try to know something which will not be disastrous -- beneficial? But that they have not. That you have no power to know that. Why don't you try to know God? Why trying to know something disastrous? What is this?

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Reckless Driving and Reckless Science/ WORLD SANKIRTAN PARTY

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