Real Scientist Means...

Founder-Acharya of the world-wide Hare Krishna Movement, Brahma Sampradaya Acharya

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Yogesvara: Yes. But actually that's a very interesting way of approaching the problem of spirituality, you see. We are learning that actually everything has some relationship with Krishna, or God. So you are a physicist, if I have understood...

Robert Gouiran: Yes.

Yogesvara: ...a nuclear physicist. So you have a very highly specialized field of knowledge. So it would be valuable to see also what is the contact of nuclear physics with the...

Guru-gauranga: Spiritual physics.

Prabhupada: The spiritual physics is... [laughter]

Robert Gouiran: Spiritual physics.

Prabhupada: Yes, "spiritual physics" can be said.

Robert Gouiran: I should say that the word "science" is misleading. The word science is generally used by the opponent of science as a pejorative label. Because really, they don't know what science is. And they think that should be the enemy.

Yogesvara: Let me relate the information little by little. He says "The word science is misleading. Generally the word science is used by people who are enemies of science to make it, to pinpoint it, that 'This is the enemy.' So they call it science, a general word."

Robert Gouiran: Exactly.

Prabhupada: Yes. They are misleading. They have no knowledge, and they are misleading. The basic principle of knowledge... They have no idea of spiritual basic principle. They take material basic principle. Therefore the beginning of their knowledge is wrong.

Guru-gauranga: (French)

Robert Gouiran: Yes, yes, yes.

Prabhupada: So on the wrong platform you may go, go forward more and more, but it will be dismantled because it is wrong.

Yogesvara: What is the... Is there a... What is the nuclear physicist's idea about the origins of creation?

Robert Gouiran: Well, nuclear physics...

Prabhupada: They do not...

Robert Gouiran: Nuclear physics has nothing to do with the study of creation.

Prabhupada: Yes, they have nothing.

Robert Gouiran: Nuclear physics is just the study of the structure of matter.

Yogesvara: The structure of matter?

Robert Gouiran: Yes. That's... How matter is done, as long as we could observe it. And how the matter is organized. And is it, is it possible to go in the deepest level where we could find the smallest particles. But nothing...

Prabhupada: But so far nuclear weapon is concerned, so there is no much credit. Because it is a weapon for killing, death. Is it not? Not for that purpose?

Robert Gouiran: No, no. Nuclear physics in itself is just a pure research of knowledge. But the manufacturing of weapons, that's not nuclear physics.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Robert Gouiran: That's just business.

Prabhupada: What is the nuclear physics?

Robert Gouiran: The nuclear physics is just a search of, the search of the structure of matter.

Yogesvara: The structure, how matter is...

Robert Gouiran: How matter is done at the most elementary level.

Yogesvara: Finding the smallest particles of...

Robert Gouiran: That has nothing to do with manufacturing of weapon.

Prabhupada: So we understand the matter generates from spirit. Just like I am a small fragment of spirit. You are also a small fragment of spirit. So when I am in the womb of my mother, so my big body grows. On account of my spirit, small particle of spirit, coming in the womb, in the womb of my mother, the body grows. So it is evident that this body has grown because the spirit soul is there. Suppose a dead child comes out. The matter will not grow. The material body will stop growing. Therefore the conclusion is matter grows on account of the spirit fragment. Do you agree or not?

Robert Gouiran: I... Do you mean that matter grows starting from a spiritual seed, something like that?

Prabhupada: Yes, yes.

Robert Gouiran: If we, if we speak in scientific terms, there is an immaterial concept called the energy.

Prabhupada: Yes. The spirit soul is also energy, and matter is also energy. Two energies, when they contact, the, the so-called expansion of matter takes place.

Robert Gouiran: Yes, and we could study in our laboratories the passage from energy to matter and back from matter to energy. It's what we call...

Prabhupada: Matter is also energy.

Robert Gouiran: ...materialization. The process of materialization.

Prabhupada: No, now, first of all, let us understand what is matter and what is spirit. Spirit is also energy, and matter is also energy. The matter, when it comes in contact with the spiritual energy, then it grows. Otherwise, it does not grow. Therefore the growing process depends on the spirit. Take this example, my body, your body. The spirit soul when it is in the womb of the mother, then it grows. The abdomen of the mother grows out. But if the spirit soul is not there, then it will not grow. There are many sex intercourse, but if the spirit soul is not there, the sex intercourse will not turn into pregnancy. Do you realize this?

Robert Gouiran: Yes.

Prabhupada: Then how the material body grows? Because the spirit soul is there. Is there any denial?

Robert Gouiran: We call in a way, but...

Prabhupada: You call in any way, but the fact is this that there is something, when in contact with that something, the matter grows. Otherwise it doesn't grow. That we call spirit soul. You may call it something else. That is a different thing. You can call in a different name, but matter grows not automatically. There must be in touch something with matter. Then it grows. This is a fact.

Robert Gouiran: And it grows by aglutamation [?] of particles.

Prabhupada: Yes. That may be. The composition may be. We take grossly five matters, gross matters, and five subtle matters. Five gross matters: this earth, water, air, fire, ether. These are gross matters. And subtle matters: mind, intelligence and ego. These are eight different types of gross and subtle matters. But they depend on the still more subtle thing. That is soul. If the soul is there, the gross matter, this material body, it grows, the mind acts, the intelligence acts, the ego acts, and as soon as the soul is out of this body, it does not act. It decomposes and again turns into gross matter. That's all. Therefore that spirit soul is the basic ground wherefrom the matter develops. Matter is developing, we can understand. A small child is developing big, fatty body. The elephant. But in the middle, if you stop, if you drive away the spirit, it will not grow.

Robert Gouiran: There is also something we should do, we do in that rat race when we study the structure of matter that we could discover a new type of energies which could help humanity to survive. So it's not pure speculation. We don't know if it could be used. We don't know yet if what we are looking for is useful or not, but past experience has shown that humanity needs energy to live...

Prabhupada: The energy is already there.

Robert Gouiran: Fire, electricity, or some other type of energy.

Prabhupada: Energy is already there. You are working. I am working.

Robert Gouiran: Yes.

Prabhupada: With energy. But what is that basic energy? The basic energy is that living force, life of the soul. And if that basic energy is absent, you cannot work any more, finished.

Yogesvara: No, I think you're speaking about energy for like running machinery? Like solar energy and petrol energy, like that kind of energy?

Robert Gouiran: Well, the energy for this now, for this recorder.

Prabhupada: Electric energy.

Robert Gouiran: For cooking your food.

Prabhupada: Electric energy.

Robert Gouiran: Any energy you need to survive.

Prabhupada: So energy comes from a source. Just like this electric energy is coming from the electric powerhouse. There is a resident engineer who is... What is called? Chilling [?]?

Pusta-krsna: Generating?

Prabhupada: Generating, yes, generator. He is somehow or other, putting the machine to get out...

Yogesvara: Turning, turning the generator.

Pusta-krsna: Engineer.

Prabhupada: Engineer. So the electricity is being generated. So behind this energy there is the living entity, engineer. Otherwise it is useless. No more energy. If you drive away that resident engineer, the electricity will fail. No more energy.

Robert Gouiran: I see that, yes.

Prabhupada: Yes. You have to understand like that. So behind this big machine which is generating electricity, there is a living being, who is pushing the button.

Robert Gouiran: Who organized it.

Prabhupada: Yes. Without that, it is nothing.

Robert Gouiran: It's just to put forward...

Prabhupada: Therefore behind this big, gigantic machine, physical world, there is a living entity, a big, powerful living entity. He is God. We are simply sample of God, a small particle. Mamaivamsho jiva-bhutah jiva-loke sanatanah [Bhagavad-gita 15.7]. Just find out this. Mamaivamshah.

Pusta-krsna: [reads:]

mamaivamsho jiva-loke
jiva-bhutah sanatanah
manah shashthanindriyani
prakriti-sthani karshati [Bg. 15.7]

"The living entities in this conditioned world are My eternal, fragmental parts. Due to conditioned life, they are struggling very hard with the six senses, which include the mind."

Prabhupada: Yes. So we are samples of God, small particles. Just like gold, big gold mine and a small particle of gold. Both of them are gold. Composition is the same. So we, the small particle of God, we are trying to create here so many things. The creating energy is there. Because we are a small particle of God, very small, so we have got so much energy, and we are planning so many things. Because on account of that creative energy. So you can just imagine how much creative energy has got the Supreme Lord, of whom we are little samples. We are little sample only, part and parcel, very small particle. So we are creating by our mind... Manah shashthanindriyani. By our senses and mind, we are so many things planning. You are also working in the laboratory with that senses and mind. But you are the creative energy. So the struggle is that we are planning to become happy within this material world. That is described here: manah shashthanindriyani prakriti-sthani karshati [Bg. 15.7]. Karshati is simply struggling. That's all.

Robert Gouiran: Stru...?

Devotees: Struggle.

Robert Gouiran: Oh, struggle.

Prabhupada: Struggle. We cannot do anything because the bigger creative energy's there. And we are simply trying to combat with Him. So therefore, uselessly we are struggling. That's all. We cannot change. Because the bigger creative energy is different. Prakåti, the material nature. Just like they are trying to create living being in the laboratory. So suppose you are trying to create living being by scientific, chemical combination, so what is the credit to you? Millions of living beings are created by the material energy. Where is your credit? You cannot even create a small ant up till now. So simply you are wasting your time. That's all. Therefore it is called, prakriti- sthani karshati. Eh? Just like the children are playing. What is the value of this playing? They are making some howling noise. That's all. What they can do? But they are thinking they are creating so many things. "We are Thakura [?]." [laughter] So you all scientists, you are doing that thing. That's all. You cannot do anything. That is not in your power. Daivi hy esha gunamayi mama maya duratyaya [Bg. 7.14]. It is very, very difficult, physical energy, which is being conducted... Just like you you have created this nuclear bomb, and if you take it and throw on the sun planet, what is the effect? Nuclear bomb can destroy something here. But where the... Your nuclear bomb will be destroyed if you throw it on the sun. Is it not? What is your calculation? We know the sun...

Robert Gouiran: If we throw... I didn't understand every word. You mean if we throw a bomb on the sun?

Prabhupada: Yes. So what will be the effect?

Robert Gouiran: What will happen?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Robert Gouiran: In the sun? It will burn.

Prabhupada: Which will be burned? Sun will be burned or your bomb will be burned?

Robert Gouiran: The bomb will burn.

Prabhupada: That's it. So your teeny effort...

Robert Gouiran: The sun might burn. [laughter]

Prabhupada: ...this physical science is nothing.

Robert Gouiran: Nothing to do.

Prabhupada: The biggest physical machine is going on. So it is simply childish playing.

Robert Gouiran: [French]

Guru-gauranga: [French]

Yogesvara: [French]

Prabhupada: There is another example. Just like the glowworm. When there is darkness... You know the glow worm. When there is darkness... You know the glow worms?

Guru-gauranga: Glow worms.

Prabhupada: Yes. They give some light.

Pusta-krsna: At night.

Prabhupada: But when there is sunrise, what is the value of this?

Guru-gauranga: [French]

Prabhupada: So your all this physical scientific advancement will be like glowworms in the presence of the scientific arrangement of God.

Robert Gouiran: But the scientists know that science is not complete, but we try to do it as the nearest approach we could do.

Prabhupada: No, no, no.

Robert Gouiran: Nobody claims to be complete.

Prabhupada: It is just like the children. The children are trying to build castle on the sea beach of sand, very busy. Two, three hours, so long the father, mother is there, they're busy. But as soon as the father, mother goes, "Hey, come on," everything finished. So this scientific struggle is exactly like that, all childish, children's play. Therefore this word is used, prakriti-sthani karshati: "The living entities, they are trying to create so many things, but it is simply struggle for existence." It has no value. The same example: children are building castles, skyscraper building. They're thinking, "This is skyscraper building." But what is the value of it?

Robert Gouiran: Yes.

Prabhupada: Now, I have been in Rome. Those... Two thousand years ago, they also constructed big, big arena, Roman arena, this temple, that temple. Now they are simply relics. Those who constructed, they're finished. And where they have gone, nobody knows. And whatever they did, that is simply relics. That's all. So when they acted on these big, big buildings, it was very important business. The same building is standing, and it is useless.

Robert Gouiran: But the relic of a ship doesn't mean that the ship has been useless.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Yogesvara: His, he says...

Prabhupada: No, no. For the time being. It is useless... Actually, it is useless. But for the time being, we are taking as very useful. Just like the aeroplane. It is very useful. But as soon as crashed, where is the...? Whole thing is lost. And it will crash. Because everything material we are creating... Just like the big, big buildings. They're also crashed. The end is there. Anything material, it has got beginning, and it has got end. That is our point. So things which will end in due course of time, why we should waste our time in that way? And we are part and parcel of God. We have got different business. We have forgotten that. We are simply engaged in temporary castle building which will be relics after some thousands of years. So are we not wasting our time?

Robert Gouiran: There is no end. It's only a transformation.

Yogesvara: There is no what?

Prabhupada: What is that transformation?

Robert Gouiran: You say...

Yogesvara: There is no end?

Robert Gouiran: ...there is a beginning and there is a end. But I don't call it an end. It's just transformation.

Prabhupada: The transformation is going on automatically. Transformation... Just like from ether there is transformation of sound. From sound there is air. From air there is fire. From fire there is water. From water there is land. That is going on. You are not doing anything. It is going on. This is known that this is the physical elements. Beginning is the ether. Do you accept it or not? From ether there is sound. From sound there is air. From air there is fire. From fire there is water. From water there is land.

Yogesvara: His point is this transformation is going on...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Yogesvara: ...but what was one ship or one relic, now there's a new one. Is that your point?

Pusta-krsna: That there is no beginning or end to the energy.

Robert Gouiran: No, what I said before. I said that to say that the ship is now relic...

Prabhupada: But you... That we admit. There is some temporary use. There is some temporary use.

Robert Gouiran: Yes, I agree.

Prabhupada: Just like your body has got some temporary use. Your body... But the... Your body's working. You, you are a scientist. You are working. Your work is temporary. But the soul, as soon as the soul is gone from your body, your body'll not work.

Robert Gouiran: Yes, but during his life my body has participated to a cosmic plane.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Yogesvara: He says, while the ship is existing or while the body's existing, it must be used. It has some utility.

Prabhupada: That I admit. But you have to accept it that it is temporary.

Robert Gouiran: Oh...

Prabhupada: It is temporary.

Robert Gouiran: But it's a parcel of...

Prabhupada: I don't say that it is false. It is temporary.

Robert Gouiran: I agree it's temporary.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Robert Gouiran: But my work is to understand what will be the next transformation.

Prabhupada: That transform...

Robert Gouiran: So to transform the temporary...

Prabhupada: You know or do not know, the transformation will take place. Take, for example, the ship. The ship is combination of these five material things, earth, water, air, fire and... And when it is destroyed, it again turns into earth, water, fire... So the conservation of energy is there. You simply give a shape, temporary, and it goes again to the same place, original physical elements. This is going on. But you are... You do not know that you are eternal. That is ignorance. So therefore the sense is that "If I am eternal, then why I am busy with these temporary things?" That knowledge is lacking. I am eternal. So now, as human being, I am busy in temporary things, to construct a big ship or aeroplane. But as soon as I change this body, I become a bird, I have no power. Then I manufacture a nest on the top of the tree. That is my business. Or... Because the body will change. That is lack of knowledge. I am eternal. In this particular body I am busy with some temporary things. And as soon as I change my body, then another temporary thing. Eh? The... Suppose the big Romans. When they were Romans, they constructed all these big, big buildings. But if the Romans have changed into birds, they're no more interested in this body. They're interested in making some complicated nest on the top of the tree. This is going on, life after li... This knowledge is lacking. Therefore it is said, manah shashthanindriyani prakriti-sthani... They are struggling on this mat... [break] ...physical world by concocted mental speculation. That's all. As soon as the body is changed, then everything is changed.

Robert Gouiran: I agree.

Prabhupada: That they do not know, that "I am changing this body, and I am getting temporary engagement and wasting my time. And... But my problem, the change of body, death, is there. The death is there. Therefore my real problem is how to stop this death." That we want also. We do not wish to die. That is our propensity.

Robert Gouiran: Are you interested to know how we produce anti-matter in our laboratories from...?

Prabhupada: Anti-matter, I have explained that, this... So our anti-matter is different. Anti-matter means spirit. But your anti-matter is different.

Robert Gouiran: Yes, it's just a word to define something.

Prabhupada: Yes, but we mean, anti-matter means there are two things, spirit and matter. So anti-matter means spirit. That is our explanation. It is not matter. Just like matter is destructible. Anti-matter means which is not destructible. That is... Any matter... Find out this verse, acchedyo 'yam adahyo 'yam ashoshyah akledyah ... Find out...

Pusta-krsna: [reads:]

acchedyo 'yam adahyo 'yam
akledyo 'shoshya eva cha
nityah sarva-gatah sthanurachalo 'yam sanatanah

Prabhupada: Yes.

Pusta-krsna: [continues, reads translation:]

"This individual soul is unbreakable and insoluble, and can be neither burned nor dried. He is everlasting, all-pervading, unchangeable, immovable and eternally the same."

Prabhupada: Yes. So any material thing is chedya, you can cut. Any material thing. The five kinds of material things, earth, water, air, you can cut it into divisions. Or it can be burned. It can be evaporated. Or it can be moistened. These things are material things. But the spiritual means just opposite. It cannot be cut. It cannot be dried up. It cannot be moistened. It..., so many things. And that is... We mean anti-matter. Just opposite. Which is possible in the physical world, but is not possible in the spiritual world. That we say anti-matter. But your anti-matter is another matter.

Robert Gouiran: Yes.

Prabhupada: Yes. Another matter.

Robert Gouiran: Another state of matter.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Robert Gouiran: It is a state of matter which does not exist in our universe, in our solar system.

Prabhupada: Maybe. But it is another material conception. And our anti-matter is... This is described. It cannot be cut, it cannot be dried up, it cannot be moistened, it cannot be... So many things. Which is possible in any material thing.

Robert Gouiran: That's the definition of energy.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Yogesvara: He says the definition you've just given of soul, that is their definition of energy, that it cannot be...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Yogesvara: ...destroyed, it cannot be...

Prabhupada: That is, that is spiritual energy. Two energies. We accept two energies. One, this material energy, which can be cut into pieces, which can be dried up, which can be moistened, which can be burned. But another, spirit, that cannot be done so.

Yogesvara: If I remember correctly from the little bit of studies that I did in physics, I think it's also the physical definition that material energy is also indestructible, that it's transformable, but not destructible. Is that correct?

Robert Gouiran: Exactly, that the, that the... I was telling the definition of the energy. And if we start from pure energy, absolutely immaterial, pure energy, this pure energy can transform itself in two parts. One is called matter and the other I call anti-matter. And these two parts, they can annihilate together, and then you have back the pure energy. That is definition, our definition, of anti-matter. The anti-matter is what is produced with the matter from pure energy, and what is annihilated by matter to produce again pure energy. You can't, you can't produce our matter, ordinary matter, from pure energy. It's impossible.

Prabhupada: That I have already explained. That pure energy is spiritual energy, and from that spiritual energy the material energy comes out. That I have already said: From the soul the matter grows. So that is spiritual energy. The basic energy is spiritual. And because the spiritual energy is the cause and the material energy is the effect, therefore in one sense we can say there is no difference between material energy and spiritual energy. Because spiritual energy is the cause, and material energy effect. Effect may be presented in different forms. Just like cotton is the cause of thread. And the thread is transformed into cloth. But you cannot take cotton for cloth. The cotton is there in the cloth in a different, transformed, transform, but you cannot accept, when you require a cloth, you cannot take cotton. This is a crude example. So the cause of physical elements is spiritual energy, and the spiritual energy is... Both spiritual... Spiritual energy is coming from God. Just like... Just like the sunshine is coming from the sun, and in the sunshine there are so many physical transformations. Is it not? In the sunshine... Just like we, ordinary men, we can understand. When there is absence of sunshine... In your western countries or in other..., the leaves of the tree falls down. And again, in the springtime, as soon as there is sufficient sunshine, immediately thousands of trees grows leaves. So there is action of sunshine. So sunshine is coming from the sun. And the sunshine is working in different ways, changing the color of the flowers, of the leaves, and... Or, so far I know, all the planets are, they're rotating on the sunshine heat. Eh? So therefore the sunshine is the original cause of all material, physical things. But wherefrom the sunshine comes? That comes from the spiritual energy. Yasya prabha prabhavato jagad-anda-koti [Brahma-samhita 5.40]. In the Brahma-samhita. So that original cause is the spiritual energy. Therefore, because everything is coming from the spiritual energy, you can take everything as spiritual. The same example: like cotton is the original cause. Then it comes thread, then comes...

Guru-gauranga: Cloth.

Prabhupada: Cloth. Then comes coat or shirt or so many things. So cotton is everywhere. Similarly, the spiritual energy is everywhere, but it is transformed by different processes. Therefore the Vedic injunction is sarvam khalv idam brahma. Everything is Brahman. Our philosophy is that everything being Krishna's energy, everything should be employed for Krishna's service. This is Krishna consciousness. The property is Krishna's. By Krishna's energy, everything has come into existence. Therefore everything belongs to Krishna. Ishavasyam idam sarvam [Ishopanishad mantra 1]. Therefore everything should be employed for Krishna's satisfaction, for His pleasure. Suppose you create something... You create some building, you create some family, you create some... So many things. You want to enjoy it. Otherwise, why you create? Why you take the responsibility of a family? For your enjoyment. Otherwise who takes care of the family? So similarly, Krishna is the Supreme Person. He has created us, Krishna's family. We also address Krishna, "O Father, give us our daily bread." And He's actually giving us bread. Not only us, to all the living entities. So it is a big family, and Krishna is the enjoyer. So we should all be engaged in Krishna's satisfaction. That is Krishna consciousness.

Guru-gauranga: [French]

Prabhupada: That is perfection.

Robert Gouiran: Just to be clear about what is the scientific concept of anti-matter...

Prabhupada: This is the scientific concept of matter. The matter grows from spirit. How you can deny it?

Robert Gouiran: I don't deny this. What I'm...

Prabhupada: Then this is scientific. That I have already explained. So the, the supreme source of everything is Krishna.

aham sarvasya prabhavo
mattah sarvam pravartate
iti matva bhajante mam
budha bhava-samanvitah [Bg. 10.8]

Read it.

Pusta-krsna: Krishna says, "I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise who know this perfectly engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts."

Prabhupada: That's it. He is the source of everything. So-called material, so-called spiritual—everything coming from Him. Therefore everything transformed... Or not transformed. Everything is transforming. That's all right. Therefore everything belongs to Him. So everything should be employed for His satisfaction. That is perfection. Iti matva bhajante mam budha bhava-samanvitah. Vasudevah sarvam iti sa mahatma sudurlabhah [Bg. 7.19]. Bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. After many, many births, when one becomes actually scientist, he understands, "Oh, Krishna is the source of everything." Find out.

bahunam janmanam ante
jnanavan mam prapadyate
vasudevah sarvam iti
sa mahatma sudurlabhah [Bg. 7.19]

Yogesvara: [French]

Prabhupada: Hm? What is that?

Yogesvara: I was explaining to him that he seems some...

Robert Gouiran: [French]

Prabhupada: Eh?

Robert Gouiran: [French]

Yogesvara: He's wondering whether there's some kind of information that he can supply providing the scientific point of view.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Yogesvara: Whether there's some information that he can provide.

Prabhupada: This is the information, that matter comes from spirit. The so-called scientists, they are thinking that life is coming from matter. And that is nonsense. Matter is coming from life. This is sense. Where is the proof that life is coming from matter? Is there any proof? We don't find any proof.

Robert Gouiran: But life...

Prabhupada: You have got laboratory.

Robert Gouiran: ...can come from matter. It can come from matter.

Prabhupada: You combine matter in the laboratory and produce a life. That you cannot do. Then why do you say that life comes from matter?

Robert Gouiran: But what is life?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Yogesvara: He asks what is...

Robert Gouiran: What is this life we should, we could not produce?

Prabhupada: That you are speaking, that is life. If this life is not there, you cannot speak.

Robert Gouiran: So it's a speaking machine.

Prabhupada: Yes, you are speaking because the life is there. That is life.

Robert Gouiran: So we can produce a speaking machine.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Robert Gouiran: We can make a speaking...

Prabhupada: No, speaking, what is that speaking machine? If I speak, then it will speak. [laughter] That is nonsense. This speaking machine will speak when I speak, when the life speaks. Otherwise it has no speaking power. Then what is the use of your machine if there is no life?

Robert Gouiran: But that doesn't tell me what is life.

Prabhupada: Now, life means... Just like you say that speaking-machine is an instrument. It has no life. But when a living man speaks, the machine speaks.

Yogesvara: It is a study of the symptoms.

Prabhupada: Similarly, the whole physical world is a machine, and the Supreme Life, Krishna, when He manipulates, operates, then it works. That is stated.

mayadhyakshena prakritih
suyate sa-characharam
hetunanena kaunteya
jagad viparivartate [Bg. 9.10]

Yes?

Pusta-krsna: "This material nature is working under My direction."

Prabhupada: This is... Just like the machine is working under the direction of a life, they are... [break] ...not without God. That is this, it has no value. That is stated in the Srimad-Bhagavatam: idam hi pumsas tapasah shrutasya va [Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.5.22]. Find out this verse. In this yellow book.

Pusta-krsna: In that one?

Prabhupada: No, no. In that yellow book. Yes, index. idam hi pumsas tapasah shrutasya vasvishtasya suktasya cha buddhi-dattayohavichyuto 'rthah kavibhir nirupitoyad- uttamashloka-gunanuvarnanam [SB 1.5.22] This is science. Idam...

Pusta-krsna: Idam hi pumsas tapasah shrutasya va...

Prabhupada: Ah, yes.

Pusta-krsna: Five, twenty-two, Page 252.

Yogesvara: So we need the other volume.

Prabhupada: Which part?

Yogesvara: First book.

Prabhupada: That's right, yes. What is the verse number?

Pusta-krsna: 5.22, Chapter Five. Yes. [Reads:]

idam hi pumsas tapasah shrutasya va
svishtasya suktasya cha buddhi-dattayoh
avichyuto 'rthah kavibhir nirupito
yad- uttamashloka-gunanuvarnanam [SB 1.5.22]

Prabhupada: Gunanuvarnanam.

Pusta-krsna: Gunanuvarnanam. [Continues reading:]

Translation: " Learned circles have positively concluded that the infallible purpose of the advancement of knowledge, namely, austerities, study of the Vedas, sacrifice, chanting of hymns and charity, culminates in the transcendental descriptions of the Lord, who is defined in choice poetry."

Prabhupada: So if you have got scientific knowledge, you scientifically explain that God is the original source. Then your knowledge is perfect. What is the purport?

Pusta-krsna: [Reads:]

Human intellect is developed for advancement of learning in art, science, philosophy, physics, chemistry, psychology, economics, politics, etc. By culture of such knowledge the human society can attain perfection of life. This perfection of life culminates in the realization of the Supreme Being, Vishnu. The shruti therefore directs that those who are actually advanced in learning should aspire for the service of Lord Vishnu. Unfortunately persons who are enamored by the external beauty of vishnu-maya do not understand that culmination of perfection or self-realization depends on Vishnu. Vishnu-maya means sense enjoyment, which is transient and miserable. Those who are entrapped by vishnu-maya utilize advancement of knowledge for sense enjoyment. Sri Narada Muni has explained that all paraphernalia of the cosmic universe is but an emanation from the Lord out of His different energies because the Lord has set in motion, by His inconceivable energy, the actions and reactions of the created manifestation. They have come to be out of His energy, they rest on His energy, and after annihilation they merge into Him. Nothing is, therefore, different from Him, but at the same time the Lord is always different from them.

When advancement of knowledge is applied in the service of the Lord, the whole process becomes absolute. The Personality of Godhead and His transcendental name, fame, glory, etc., are all nondifferent from Him. Therefore, all the sages and devotees of the Lord have recommended that the subject matter of art, science, philosophy, physics, chemistry, psychology and all other branches of knowledge should be wholly and solely applied in the service of the Lord. Art, literature, poetry, painting, etc., may be used in glorifying the Lord. The fiction writers, poets and celebrated literateurs are generally engaged in writing of sensuous subjects, but if they turn towards the service of the Lord they can describe the transcendental pastimes of the Lord. Valmiki was a great poet, and similarly Vyasadeva is a great writer, and both of them have absolutely engaged themselves in delineating the transcendental activities of the Lord and by doing so have become immortal. Similarly, science and philosophy also should be applied in the service of the Lord. There is no use presenting dry speculative theories for sense gratification. Philosophy and science should be engaged to establish the glory of the Lord. Advanced people are eager to understand the Absolute Truth through the medium of science, and therefore a great scientist should endeavor to prove the existence of the Lord on a scientific basis. Similarly, philosophical speculations should be utilized to establish the Supreme Truth as sentient and all-powerful. Similarly, all other branches of knowledge should always be engaged in the service of the Lord. In the Bhagavad-gita also the same is affirmed. All "knowledge" not engaged in the service of the Lord is but nescience. Real utilization of advanced knowledge is to establish the glories of the Lord, and that is the real import. Scientific knowledge engaged in the service of the Lord and all similar activities are all factually hari-kirtana, or glorification of the Lord. Jaya, bliss. Hare Krishna.

Prabhupada: So? Do you agree or not? [laughter] We welcome scientific knowledge. We don't say that scientific knowledge should be stopped, but it should be utilized to glorify the Lord. Then it is perfect. Otherwise useless. Means you don't get perfection. Perfection is when you scientifically describe the existence of God and His different energies, how they are working. And that is scientist, real scientist. Otherwise, theories, you can give your theory, I'll give you a theory... Temporary. That's all. So everything is there in Bhagavatam, all knowledge, full knowledge. Vidvan bhagavata-vadi. So vidvan means, vidvan means one who has learned Bhagavata, Bhagavatam nicely. He's vidvan, factually. So you do not read all these things?

Robert Gouiran: I am sorry.

Prabhupada: Always read. So many information are there.

Pusta-krsna: Does this mean, Srila Prabhupada, that if the scientists of the world become little bit directed and they use their science to glorify Krishna, then they're actually practicing yoga?

Prabhupada: That is success. Their scientific knowledge will be successful when by scientific knowledge they prove that God is the origin of the universe. That is success. That is... Another verse you can read. Idam hi pumsas... No. That...

atah pumbhir dvija-shreshtha
varnashrama-vibhagashah
svanushthitasya dharmasya
samsiddhir hari-toshanam [SB 1.2.13]

Find out the verse.

Guru-gauranga: If their science is material, Srila Prabhupada, how can they...

Prabhupada: There is nothing material before Krishna. Because everything's coming from Krishna. One who does not know Krishna, it is material. One who knows Krishna, it is spiritual.