Scientists and the Art of Imitation

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Prabhupada: The process is that where your senses cannot approach, you have to hear from authority. That is the process. But if you don't approach authority, if you approach a cheater, that is your misfortune. But the process is, where your senses cannot act, you have to approach authority. That is the process.

Svarup Damodar: But they want experimental knowledge.

Prabhupada: Yes, this is experimental.

Svarup Damodar: They say, "It cannot be proved."

Prabhupada: No, why not proved? Just like I gave you the... this water, this sand, it is practical. Now you must know somebody has made it.

Karandhara: Well, the difficulty is, in a group of atheists, you can't prove God no matter what you say.

Prabhupada: No, atheists, kick them on their face. Atheists, they are... Those who are reasonable, that everything see, that somebody has made. So this sand is also made by somebody, the water is also made by somebody, the sky is also made by somebody. Now you find out who is that somebody. That is knowledge.

Dr. Wolfe: They do not want to transcend the limits. They do not want to transcend the limits.

Prabhupada: There is no question of transcending, practical. Everything you see, it is made by somebody. The stick is made by somebody. The cloth is made by somebody. So this must be made by somebody.

Dr. Wolfe: But they would say, "Present me the somebody so that I..." They would say, "Present to me the somebody so that I can see him."

Prabhupada: Yes, I'll present you. So you have to take training from me. You have to make your eyes to see Him.

Dr. Wolfe: We want to.

Prabhupada: That is the... Yes. But if you refuse to be treated, if you don't go to the physician, then how you'll be? You are blind now. There is cataract. Now you have to treat in a surgical operation. Tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [Mundaka Upanishad 1.2.12]. This is the injunction.

Karandhara: You see, that step requires faith.

Prabhupada: Not faith, practical.

Karandhara: Initially it must be, there must be faith in the guru.

Prabhupada: Practical. If you want to learn something, you must to go the expert. That is not faith; it is a fact. You cannot learn anything by yourself. That is not possible.

Do you want to be cheated?

Bali Mardana: If someone is actually sincere, can he be cheated or will he always get a bona fide guru?

Prabhupada: No, if he is sincere he'll get. Yes. Guru-krishna-kripaya paya bhakti-lata-bija [Chaitanya-charitamrita Madhya 19.151]. Guru and Krishna. Krishna is within you. As soon as He sees that you are sincere, He'll give you the right person.

Bali Mardana: So if you are not completely sincere, you might get a Guru Maharaji.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Bali Mardana: If you're not completely sincere, you might get someone else.

Prabhupada: Yes. Because you want to be cheated, you go to the cheater. That's all. Ye yatha mam prapadyante tams tathaiva bhajamy aham [Bhagavad-gita 4.11]. Krishna is intelligent, superintelligent. If you are a cheater, He'll cheat you. He'll cheat you. First-class cheat, Krishna. But if you're actually sincere, then He'll give you the right thing. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita, mattah smritir jnanam apohanam cha: [Bg. 15.15] "Everything is coming from Me: smritih, remembrance, and forgetfulness." If you are a cheater, Krishna will give you such intelligence, you'll forget Krishna forever.

Dr. Wolfe: Srila Prabhupada, so it is so, "Birds of a feather flock together." The cheaters flock together.

Prabhupada: Yes. "Birds of the same feather flock together."

Karandhara: The thing is that our philosophy is as supportable as theirs, but because they are in control they have the dominance.

Prabhupada: Who has dominance?

Karandhara: The atheists.

Prabhupada: Atheists? [laughs] One kick of maya, he's finished. [laughter] All dominance. One this kick his dominance all finished, in one second. [laughter] No dominance. That is maya. They are under control, but thinking that "We are free." That is called maya, that is called maya. They are under full control but they are thinking, "We are free." That is maya. Mohini, mohinim shritah. What is that verse? Asurim mohinim?

Hrdayananda: Rakshasim. Moghasha mogha...

Prabhupada: Prakritim mohinim. Moghasha mogha-karmano mogha-jnana vichetasah [Bg. 9.12]. Because they are bewildered, all their hopes will be frustrated. Moghashah. Because they are rascals, asurim, atheists, all their hopes will be frustrated. This is stated. And that is being done. They are making so big, big plan; now it is going to be frustrated. Just see.

Svarup Damodar: Still, they don't want to come to their senses.

Prabhupada: Therefore they are rascals. Rascal means that however kick him on his face, still, he'll insist. That is rascal. Rascal means that. They'll never take good lesson. That is rascal. And sensible means he takes good lesson. Na mam dushkritino mudhah [Bg. 7.15]. And why they remain rascal? Because they are dushkritinah, very, very sinful. Very, very sinful. Don't you see? They are maintaining slaughterhouse. They are maintaining brothel. They are ruining everyone's life by sense gratification. These are all sinful activities. Therefore they remain rascal forever. They cannot improve. Because they are so sinful, they have to suffer, go to the darkest region. They'll have to become worms of the stool. That is awaiting them. But they do not know how things are going on. They are thinking, "We are now safe. We are safe." That is foolishness. That is rascaldom. Rascal means that... You know the story, that Kalidasa, a great poet, he was a great rascal. So... It is a long story. So he was sitting on the branch of a tree and cutting. So some gentleman: "Why you are cutting? You'll fall down." "No, no, I'll not fall down." But when he fell down, then he went to that gentleman, "How did you know, sir, that I shall fall down?" Then they concluded, "Here is a rascal number one." [laughter] "Here is a rascal number one." They do not know that they are going to hell. That is rascaldom. By their so-called scientific advancement, philosophy, education, they are going to hell. That they do not know. Therefore they are rascals. Therefore they are rascals. This is the definition of rascaldom: one who does not know where he is going. If somebody goes in this way straight, and you say "Don't go!" "No! Why shall I not go?" He's rascal. [ laughter] He's rascal. And the another rascal, "Yes, yes, you can go, it is all right." Yata mata tata patha. "As many ways you manufacture, it is all right. You can go this way." He's another rascal. This is going on.

Svarup Damodar: How do we bring them to their senses?

Prabhupada: This is Krishna consciousness. Be Krishna conscious and everything will be solved. How we are speaking? Because we have taken shelter of Krishna. That's all. Mam eva ye prapadyante mayam etam taranti, as soon as you surrender to Krishna, all this maya, misconception, will go. You'll become right person, in knowledge. That is Krishna consciousness, to become perfect man. Because there is guidance, the perfect guidance, so he becomes perfect. Harer nama harer nama harer nama... [Cc. Adi 17.21]. This is the statement in Bhagavata, adanta-gobhir vishatam tamisram: [Srimad-Bhagavatam 7.5.30] "Because they cannot control their senses, therefore they are making progress towards the darkest region of hell." Adanta- gobhir vishatam tamisram punah punash charvita: "And repeatedly chewing the chewed." They make one plan. It is frustrated. Again make another plan. That is frustrated. Again make another plan. But they will never agree to accept that these plans are all useless. That is rascaldom. That is rascaldom. Repeatedly chewing the chewed, chewing the chewed. The same woman, same vagina, and that is their pleasure. Bas. At home, and in street or nightclub and theater—the same vagina. That's all.

Dr. Wolfe: Srila Prabhupada, they would say that that is braveness. They are brave in trying again and again.

Prabhupada: Yes, they must say. That is their rascaldom. One who goes, braveness, go to the Pacific Ocean and die, and go to hell. That is their braveness. That is their braveness. They are bravely going to hell. That's all. There is a story, palavarne boi nate(?). One man is chasing another man. So the man who is chased, he's asked, "Why you are fleeing away, fleeing away?" So, "Am I afraid of you? Why shall I not flee? Why shall not go? Am I afraid of you?" He's fleeing out of fear, but still, he says, "Am I afraid of you? Am I afraid of you? Why shall I not? Why shall I stop?" This is the position. "Bravely I am going to hell. Why shall I stop? I am brave." This is going on.

Hrdayananda: It's crazy.

Prabhupada: Yes, crazy. This is stated:

pishachi paile yena mati-cchanna hayamaya-grasta jivera haya se bhava udaya

"Just like when a man becomes crazy, ghostly haunted, he speaks all nonsense, similarly, anyone who is under the influence of this material energy, he's crazy." He's crazy, talks all nonsense. That's all.

mayar boshe jaccho bhese'khaccho habudubu bhai

This is Bhaktivinoda Thakura's... "Why you are being carried away by the waves of maya and you are becoming drowned and sometimes up, sometimes down? Why you are wasting your life in that way?"

jiva krishna das e bishwaskorle to' ar duhkho nai

"If you simply accept Krishna as your guidance, there is no more maya." But they'll not accept. Bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. Therefore one who accepts and surrenders unto Krishna after many, many births of such struggle for existence, he is actually wise. He's actually wise.

Ultimately everyone will come to Krishna

Prajapati: Srila Prabhupada, why has it taken so long for a pure devotee to come to the West? Has the West been so sinful that no pure devotee has come before Your Divine Grace?

Prabhupada: [laughs] Don't be sorry. At that time you were so sinful that you could not receive a pure devotee.

Karandhara: Yes. Once in a lecture a lady asked you why hadn't you come sooner, and you just said, "Well, you weren't ready for me."

Prabhupada: Yes, "Because you were not ready." [laughs] Yes, I told, yes. Now the Western boys, the descendants of the Western people, they are fortunate; therefore they receive Krishna. Kona bhagyavan jiva. It is Krishna's desire that "These people are suffering so much; let some devotees come here." So you are all devotees. You have come to join together.

Svarup Damodar: Srila Prabhupada, during the progress of evolutionary process, suppose if the individual soul falls down from the human platform, the individual soul falls down from the human platform to some other lower species, but in the course of again evolutionary process, at some stage along the path he'll come to Krishna consciousness. Is this...?

Prabhupada: Yes, yes, that is the process. Evolution means to come to that end, Krishna consciousness. That is real evolution. If one misses the chance, then again falls down. But the natural progress is that.

Svarup Damodar: But ultimately he will come to Krishna consciousness.

Prabhupada: Yes, ultimately everyone will come to Krishna. Not Krishna consciousness, but Krishna. At the end of this world, devastation, they enter into the body of Krishna. They remain there.

Hrdayananda: That wouldn't be very good for a devotee.

Prabhupada: Huh? But they have no sense.

Imitation is the best way of flattery

[Speaking of the ocean waves]...can overflood the whole area, but no. "Up to this, no more, sir." Under whose order they are working? There must be some control.

Prajapati: They would say it's under the control of the moon. The moon controls the tides.

Prabhupada: Yes, the moon is controlled by whom?

Svarup Damodar: They'll say, "By nature."

Prabhupada: Nature is controlled by whom?

Bali Mardana: Who is controlling the moon?

Prabhupada: That is answered in the Bhagavad-gita, mayadhyakshena prakritih suyate sa-characharam: [Bg. 9.10] "Nature is controlled by Me." Therefore He is absolute controller. But He is not controlled by anyone. Therefore He is absolute controller. Just like a, what is called? Magnetic stone?

Hrdayananda: Magnet?

Prabhupada: Magnet, it attracts.

Svarup Damodar: Iron filings.

Prabhupada: Iron filings. But who has given this power to this magnetic stone? You cannot give.

Karandhara: They say, "It's just there by nature's arrangement."

Prabhupada: That is answered: "Nature is controlled by God."

Karandhara: Well, they prefer to leave nature as nondescript. When they say or designate as "nature," they prefer to leave that nondescript, nonspecific.

Prabhupada: Why? That means insufficient knowledge. They do not wish to describe it because your [their] foolishness will be discovered.

Svarup Damodar: They will say that "I can do that. That is done by nature."

Prabhupada: Huh?

Svarup Damodar: In the case of a magnet, suppose if I take a piece of iron and if I magnetize it by electrical current, it will act as a magnet. So they say...

Prabhupada: Yes, but the iron is not manufactured by you. Neither the magnetic stone is manufactured by you. You take nature's product and utilize it. That is not your original creation. So what is credit to you? You can transform. That is in your hand. Yayedam dharyate jagat [Bg. 7.5]. There are two things: material and spiritual, inferior energy and superior energy. Jiva-bhutam maha-baho. The living entities, they are superior energy. Why superior? They can take the materials and handle. Yayedam dharyate jagat. That is your superior energy. You can take the matters and combine it and make something else. That is the world, going on, matter and spirit. You have created your own body by your desire. So that you can do, but the materials, the body, you cannot create. That is not in your power.

Svarup Damodar: They are trying to make it.

Prabhupada: Again "trying." It is already there. What is the use of your trying? The same thing. Already dog is barking, but one is trying to imitate. That's all. But people will go to see the imitation barking by purchasing ticket, and the real barking they'll neglect.

Svarup Damodar: That is called, "new discovery."

Prabhupada: What is that new discovery? Barking is already there. What is new discovery? You are simply imitating barking, that's all. Barking is already there. What is discovery?

Svarup Damodar: But that imitation is just new.

Prabhupada: No. Imitation is flattery. That's all. Imitation is the best way of flattery. That's all.

Karandhara: Actually they are proving our point because as persons they can imitate the Supreme person, but He made the original. If they were not persons or living entities, they couldn't imitate God's creation.

Prabhupada: Now, in your laboratory, by mixing hydrogen, oxygen, if you produce one ounce of water, what is your credit? Here is vast water already.

Svarup Damodar: They say it was not done before in the lab.

Prabhupada: It is done already; otherwise where the water came? You do not know who did it. That is your ignorance.

Hrdayananda: So it just enviousness. They're just envious.

Prabhupada: Foolishness. Enviousness means one must be able. But they are not able. Simply foolishness.

Bali Mardana: They have created artificial gems, like...

Prabhupada: Just like you are a powerful man. I am a powerful man. I become envious. That is allowed. But I'm not powerful, I'm trying to imitate you, it is foolishness.

Svarup Damodar: But they're saying that God didn't give me all the knowledge to do, how to make this water.

Prabhupada: Because He wanted you to remain a fool. He wanted. Because you are atheist, He wanted that you shall remain ever fool. That is God's business. Tan aham dvishatah kruran kshipamy ajasram ashubhan yonishu [Bg. 16.19]. These atheistic class, they remain always fools. Krishna gives him birth in such a family, in such a country, in such a position that he remains fool. He remains always fool. That is stated in the Bhagavad- gita.

Yasomatinandana: Prabhupada, it's like the barber giving opinion on the science of medicine. It's like barber giving opinion on the science of medicine. Because the materialistic person, they claim to be expert of material science, and still, they want to give opinion on the spiritual science.

Prabhupada: No, no, they are not even expert of material science. They are expert in bluffing others things with jugglery of words. That's it.

Improved by plastic plates

Svarup Damodar: No, they're saying that it was not done before, like telephones and these airplanes and these new discoveries.

Prabhupada: Well, there were better telephones. You do not know it. Just like Sanjaya is sitting with his master, Dhritarashtra, and he's relaying all the war affairs going on. He asked, kim akurvata sanjaya: [Bg. 1.1] "What did they do?" But he was sitting in the room. Where is your that telephone? It is television within the heart. He is seeing everything and relay. Bhagavad-gita, don't you see? Sanjaya uvacha, dhritarashtra uvacha. Dhritarashtra inquired, "Now, after meeting my sons and nephews, what they are doing?" And he's relaying, "Now Duryodhana is going to see Dronacharya. Dronacharya says like this. Bhishmadeva says..." How does he say within the room? But you know that science?

Svarup Damodar: But they will say that that was only possible...

Prabhupada: He will say... They may say, but we are putting some fact. They may say all nonsense. We are not going to accept that.

Karandhara: Some of them say, "Well we've improved on nature. By making things like plastics and medicines, we've improved nature."

Prabhupada: All right. Very improvement. People were eating in silver plates, golden plates, and you have improved by plastic plates. [laughter] This rascaldom can be understood by another rascal. We are not going to do.

Hrdayananda: The plastic is a great problem because they can't get rid of it. Plastic has become a great problem because there is no way to dispose of it. So it just piles up and piles up, and they can't get rid of it.

Svarup Damodar: In the future they are going to make plastic houses.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarup Damodar: Transparent, you can see everything from the house.

Prabhupada: So what is the credit there?

Svarup Damodar: They say that is an improvement.

Bali Mardana: But the plastic depends on oil.

Prabhupada: That is their foolishness. They are going to hell and still they are thinking, "improvement." This is their foolishness. Foolish means that, that he's going to hell, but he's thinking, "improving." This is their...

Dr. Wolfe: Srila Prabhupada, wouldn't it be more sincere if these people, these scientists said, "We don't want to be taken out of this dream, that with our senses and with all the machines built on senses we will be able to make it"? But they don't want to be taken out of that dream.

Prabhupada: But that is their foolishness.

Dr. Wolfe: They don't want to admit it even.

Prabhupada: Why not? They have to admit. Just like I gave you the example that you cannot see how many stars are there, but there are. If you say, "I don't see it, I don't believe it," that is your foolishness. That is your foolishness. You have to admit that your senses are limited. They are not perfect. That is the four defects of the conditioned soul: he commits mistake, he is illusioned, he cheats, and his senses are imperfect.

Dr. Wolfe: But they say they try and try again.

Prabhupada: No, try, how? How can you? You are diseased person. Suppose you are suffering from cataract disease. So you can try, try, try, try. Will you be cured? You'll never be cured. You must go to a physician. He'll operate, surgical operation. Then there is chance of seeing. You cannot, trying, trying, trying, trying. Then you go on trying, but you'll never be cured.

Dr. Wolfe: But that is just what they do not want to accept.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is foolishness. That is foolishness. They do not take good advice. That is foolishness. Foolishness means murkhayopadesho hi prakipaya na shantaye. Murkha, a rascal, if you give him good advice, he'll be angry. Just like a serpent, if you bring the serpent and if you tell the serpent, "My dear friend serpent, you live with me. I shall give you daily nice food, milk and banana. You'll be very pleased." So the result will be that his poison will increase. One day he'll say, "Phah! Phah!" [laughter] So these rascals are like that.

Svarup Damodar: But they won't give up hopes. They are always hopeful.

Prabhupada: That is foolishness. Their hopes are being frustrated every moment; still, they are hoping. That is foolishness.

Where's the proof?

Prajapati: Srila Prabhupada, I once was distributing some of your literature to a library, and the librarian said, "If these are five thousand years old, where is the proof of this? Do we have the copies that were written down five thousand years ago?"

Prabhupada: This is the proof. This is the proof. You see. But if you close your eyes... Just like if somebody says, "Now there is sunrise, light." And if he is in darkness, he says, "Where is the proof there is light?" So, "You please come out and see." So you read it and there will be proof.

Karandhara: Even if you don't accept it's five thousand years old, that doesn't diminish the value of the books.

Prabhupada: Simply read it. There is no question of five thousand, ten thousand, old or new. Just see what is the knowledge there. Lokasyajanato vidvamsh chakre satvata-samhitam [SB 1.7.6]. Because they are fools, for them this literature is made. Lokasyajanato vidvamsh chakre satvata-samhitam. If they accept Bhagavata, then their Darwin's theory is finished. Darwin's theory is finished.

Svarup Damodar: No, if they accept that there is a spirit soul, then Darwin's theory is also finished.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarup Damodar: Spirit soul, they don't like to accept it.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Prajapati: The theologians are saying that if we say man is simply soul, he is not his body, we are not accepting the whole man. The whole man means soul and body together.

Prabhupada: Yes, we say, body, same...

Karandhara: Body, mind and soul.

Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Gross matter, subtle matter, and the spirit.

Prajapati: That is whole man.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is whole creation. Why man? Everything. [break]

Why waste time for imitation when we have got real thing?

Nature is not under his control; he is under nature's control.

Dr. Wolfe: Srila Prabhupada, they are foolish enough to try it.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarup Damodar: But they are going to make houses on the moon now. On the surface of the moon they'll make houses in a few years.

Prabhupada: What is the benefit?

Karandhara: There's plenty of space on the earth. Why do they have to go to the moon?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarup Damodar: Because it was not done before, so they want to show it to the people. They want to show the power of science.

Prabhupada: Power of science means imitating the barking of the dog. That's all. Dog is already barking, but they imitate and they become scientists. That's all. This is their power. How to imitate. That's all.

Svarup Damodar: But they will say, "We are more advanced." So they can imitate.

Prabhupada: Yes. That's all right. But we are not so fools that we shall waste our time for imitation. We have got already real thing. Why shall I go to the imitation.

Karandhara: Their imitations are cheap. Like a sputnik, how does it compare with a planet?

Prabhupada: Not cheap! Their imitation... They are going to the... They're spending millions and millions. It is very dear, costly. First thing is imitation, and that imitation is very, very costly. Very expensive. So that is their foolishness. They'll be satisfied with the imitation which is very costly.

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Scientists and the Art of Imitation/ WORLD SANKIRTAN PARTY

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