Molecules to Chicken: Definition of Life and Its Origin

Founder-Acharya of the world-wide Hare Krishna Movement, Brahma Sampradaya Acharya

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Svarup Damodar: Now most of these slides will appear in our book, the origin of life and matter, Life Comes From Life. Now Sadaputa and myself made these slides. These are some of the... Only a few slides. We specifically want comments from your Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada, whether these slides will be appropriate to be in the book. Now this is the philosophy between the difference between life and matter. So this is sankhya philosophy. The principles and the philosophy, as Srila Prabhupada comments in Srimad-Bhagavatam in the Third Canto, the sankhya philosophy is especially meant for persons who are conditioned by this material world, and by understanding the science of devotional service and sankhya philosophy, one can become free from the modes of material nature. So we want to impose that in order to understand the distinction between life and matter, one must at least have a glimpse of the Absolute Truth, at least some idea of the Absolute Truth. Otherwise, it is completely impossible to understand the difference between what is life and what is matter. That is why scientists nowadays are so much confused about the concept of life and matter. So in fact the scientist Orgell, in his book The Origin of Life, he starts with saying "What is life? The question 'What is life?' should not be inquired." He says...

Prabhupada: One minute. That Absolute Truth is explained in the Vedanta-sutra, janmady asya yatah [Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.1.1]. Absolute Truth is that from whom everything comes into existence, everything emanates. Now that has been discussed in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, because Srimad-Bhagavatam is the natural commentary by the same author. So he begins janmady asya yato 'nvayad itaratash chartheshv abhijnah [SB 1.1.1]. This word is used. He's not dead body, dead matter-abhijnah, like that. In the beginning. That source of everything... Janmady asya yato 'nvayad itaratash chartheshv abhijnah [SB 1.1.1]. Just like a mother gives birth to a child. She knows everything, how the child was born in the womb, how it developed, how it is coming. At least, on the whole, she knows everything. Similarly, the original source of everything is immediately informed in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, that abhijnah, experienced, knows everything. Anvayad itaratash cha, directly and indirectly, everything it knows. So the origin of everything cannot be a dead man. That is the beginning of Srimad-Bhagavatam.

Svarup Damodar: So the scientists, since they do not know the Absolute Truth, they say such fundamental and most important questions, "What is life," should not be asked, say it is very unscientific. That is their verdict. But we say no, that shouldn't be the case. We say what is life should be inquired and it should be understood. Otherwise, how can one study the origin without knowing what it is? It is rather meaningless to study the origin of something which is not known.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarup Damodar: So we say, yes, the fundamental and basic requirement is to understand this basic difference between the two principles, life and matter. Now here the Absolute Truth, in the shloka,

ity etat kathitam gurvi
jnanam tad brahma-darshanam
yenanubuddhyate tattvam
prakriteh purushasya cha [SB 3.32.31]

The translation says, "My dear respectful mother, I have already described the path of understanding the Absolute Truth by which one can come to understand the real truth of matter and spirit and their relationship." So here it clearly says that in order to understand these basic principles, one must have at least some idea about the Absolute Truth. And it is quite scientific. Comparing our normal scientific disciplines like physics, chemistry and mathematics, in fact this very principle is utilized. But the scientists, not knowing that the axioms, or fundamental truths, are coming from the absolute source. So this is the basic requirement.

Prabhupada: I have heard that mathematics believes by some imaginary thing, minus, so on, like that.

Svarup Damodar: The absolute numbers?

Prabhupada: Something minus one, like that. Who is mathematician here?

Svarup Damodar: [laughs] Here is our mathematician.

Prabhupada: All right, so is that the beginning of mathematics?

Svarup Damodar: What is the beginning of mathematics?

Sadaputa: Well, the beginning of mathematics is counting a number. We have that square root of minus one.

Prabhupada: Yes. That I heard. The beginning is minus one. That is imaginary; it is not fact. But they imagine something at the beginning.

Svarup Damodar: Yes. In fact it is called imaginary number. Square root of minus one.

Prabhupada: Yes, if mathematics begins with imaginary something, why not Absolute Truth? That Absolute Truth must be life. As Bhagavata explains, janmady asya yato 'nvayad itaratash chartheshv abhijnah [SB 1.1.1]. He must be aware of everything. That means life. That means life. Now the question is how He became experienced? Svarat, independent. Just like we require experience, knowledge, from somebody else. Experienced knowledge is not gained automatically, but the Absolute means that He is full of knowledge. How He got knowledge? Svarat, independently. That is the description. You have to imagine at least like that. It is Vedic injunction, it is the fact, that Absolute Truth independently cognizant of everything. That is Absolute Truth.

Svarup Damodar: Now we want to describe something about this Absolute Truth. His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada has explained that Absolute Truth is that from which everything comes: janmady asya yatah [SB 1.1.1]. Now what is the Absolute Truth, and how the Absolute Truth is to be known? Now in Srimad-Bhagavatam, Absolute Truth is described anadir atma purusho nirgunah prakriteh parah. The Absolute Truth or the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the Supreme Soul, and He has no beginning, anadi, He has no beginning. And He is also nirguna, He's transcendental to the material modes of nature. And prakriteh para, beyond the existence of this material world.

Prabhupada: The same thing is explained also in the Brahma-samhita, anadir-adi. He's anadi, He has no beginning, but He is the beginning of everything. Anadir-adi, govindam adi-purusham tam aham bhajami. He is the beginning of everything, but He has no beginning.

Svarup Damodar: And He is purusha, He's a person. Now how the Absolute Truth is to be known? In Bhagavad-gita it is described bhaktya mam abhijanati [Bg. 18.55]. The Absolute Truth must be understood as He is only by devotional service. So...

Prabhupada: Otherwise, it is not possible. That I explained this morning, panthas tu koti-shata-vatsara-sampragamyo vayor athapi manaso muni-pungavanam, so 'pyasti yat prapada-simny avinchintya-tattve [Brahma-samhita 5.34]. Without bhakti, if you go on speculating for many, many years with the speed of mind, if you want to go, still avinchintya-tattve, it will remain inconceivable.

Svarup Damodar: So what it means is that in order to understand this distinction between life and matter one must be a devotee.

Prabhupada: Yes. We raise the question, we challenge these rascals because we are following the path of devotion. We are not scientists. And we could not challenge unless we were convinced. How it is possible? Suppose I am layman, how I am challenging these big, big scientists? It is not... Because we have known it through devotional service, so this is science. That is the difference.

Svarup Damodar: So these are some of the axiomatic truths that are necessary steps in order to study this problem between life and...

Prabhupada: In Bhagavad-gita it is said bhaktya mam abhijanati: [Bg. 18.55] "One can understand Me through bhakti." And the Vedic injunction is that "If one knows Me, or knows the Absolute Truth, God, then he knows everything." Kasmin tu bhagavo vijnate sarvam idam vijnatam bhavati. If somehow or other one knows the Absolute Truth, then he knows everything. Kasmin tu bhagavo vijnate sarvam idam vijnatam bhavati. That is the benefit of knowing the Absolute Truth. So a devotee knows everything. How it is possible? That is explained in Bhagavad-gita,

tesham evanukampartham
aham ajnana-jam tamah
nashayamy atma-bhava-stho
jnana-dipena bhasvata [Bg. 10.11]

One may challenge, "How a person can know everything?" So Krishna immediately replies that "I help him specifically." Tesham evanukampartham. "Just to show My personal, especial favor upon him, I light up the torch of knowledge, and he knows everything." So if Krishna helps one to know everything, who can check it? That is not possible. This science must be there. We are not all-powerful. Krishna is all-powerful means He can do everything.

Svarup Damodar: It is also further described about this Absolute Truth as vadanti tat tattva-vidas... [SB 1.2.11].

Prabhupada:

vadanti tat tattva-vidas
tattvam yaj jnanam advayam
brahmeti paramatmeti
bhagavan iti shabdyate [SB 1.2.11]

That is the Absolute. Go on.

Svarup Damodar: Now these statements are quite scientifically valid and sound. Now this will be verified in our next slide that is called the axioms. This is called structure of a theory. In scientific disciplines, specifically in mathematics, now scientists work with a beginning called axioms. There are two types of axioms. First one is logical axiom, and second one is theoretical axioms. Now from these axioms, by inference, actually one deduces these theorems. That's in the second block. From there, by observation, we have this object of study. Now the basic question is wherefrom these axioms coming from? The starting point, axioms, they take it for granted, and actually there is no proof. It is beyond proof, beyond any scientific proof.

Prabhupada: Vedanta-sutra means all axiom. Vedanta-sutra, that is all axiom. Axiomatic truth.

Svarup Damodar: So the way that science works, also they depend on axioms. But actually, when one analyzes this a little thoughtfully, one should come to the conclusion that actually these axioms are coming from the Absolute. So our first proposition that in order to understand life and matter one must have this, er, some knowledge of the Absolute Truth is scientifically sound.

Prabhupada: I tried to explain something in the beginning of Ishopanishad, my lecture in the Conway Hall, what is that Absolute Truth. "Introduction." I have given the example that the Vedas say cow dung is pure. This is axiomatic truth. Now if you analyze cow dung you'll find all the antiseptic properties are there. This is axiomatic.

Difference between life and matter

Svarup Damodar: Now in the next slide we establish the difference between the life and matter. These are some of the basic differences between the...

Prabhupada: We can't read it. I cannot read.

Pusta Krishna: One side it says "matter," the other side it says "life."

Svarup Damodar: On the left side, it is matter; on the right side, it is life. Now it is little different from the way that this different set-up by biologists. This is quite unique in a sense because we all take this from the sources of Srimad-Bhagavatam and Bhagavad-gita. So the first point says that matter is the inferior energy of the Absolute Truth, and on the right column, it is the superior energy of the Absolute Truth. Now in the...

Prabhupada: Yes. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gita.

Svarup Damodar: Then in the second point, under the heading of matter, it is describable to some extent by physical and chemical laws. But on the other hand, life is nonphysical and nonchemical; it is beyond matter; it is transcendental. That is the basic difference.

Prabhupada: That is explained indirectly. What are those verses? Na chindanti, na dahati. Definition by negation. It is never dried up, it is never cut into pieces, it is never moistened. Why don't you find that verse? Negative way. Physical means this can be cut into particle, pieces, but here, it cannot be cut into pieces. Your physical and chemical, you have got idea. Any physical thing can be cut into pieces. But here the negative description is given. It cannot be cut into pieces. Now we have to see what is that thing which cannot be cut into pieces.

Svarup Damodar: So we say nonphysical, nonchemical.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is quite right. Physical, anything physical can be cut into pieces. Read it.

Hari-sauri: This is Bhagavad-gita 2.20:

"For the soul there is never birth nor death, nor having once been does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing, undying and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain."

Purport: "The soul can never be cut into pieces by any weapon, nor can he be burned by fire, nor moistened by water, nor withered by the wind. This individual soul is unbreakable and insoluble, and can be neither burned nor dried."

Prabhupada: This is nonphysical. This is not physical. Physical, what is that physical thing which cannot be burned, which cannot be cut, which cannot be soaked? There is no such thing to the physical exterior. Is there anything?

Svarup Damodar: No.

Prabhupada: Therefore not physical. This is definition by negation. In the logic, there is a process of definition by negation. The Mayavadis, they define this Brahman, neti, neti, neti, neti, negation. "It is not this, it is not this." What is, that they cannot tell. They simply negate. That is a partial definition. Yes, go on.

Svarup Damodar: And the third point, lacks—in matter column—lacks specific inherent complex form, and life column has a specific complex form and activity by nature. Now here we are talking about complex form. Normally the matter itself is very simple by nature, but life tends, when the living entity is in a living body, the matter itself is also very complex when it is associated with life. But matter per se is a very simple, simple structure.

Pusta Krishna: How can you say, though, that the soul has a complex form?

Svarup Damodar: Well, we get information that in the spiritual world the spiritual world is full of variegatedness. It is not just one variety. It is full of varieties. So we take that as proof of the complex nature of life.

Prabhupada: We see that so long the life is there in the material body, he has got varieties of thoughts. That is the proof that life is full of varieties. As soon as the life is not there, no more varieties, only one variety, dead body, that's all, finished. And as long as the life is there, he has got so many ideas, so many arts, so many philosophies, so many... That is the proof that life is full of varieties. That is the proof. As soon as the life is off, there is no variety. So what do you want, more proof that life is full of variety.

Svarup Damodar: Yes. Srila Prabhupada, in this connection, this variegatedness in connection with life, can you take it as some sort of complex structures?

Prabhupada: You can... Because we, at the present moment, we cannot understand, except physics and chemistry, we cannot understand life. So as we do not understand life, so therefore the definition by negation is there. It is not physical, not chemical. It is something beyond. But by practical experience we can see that when there is life, a living man wants varieties. That's a fact. Varieties. Otherwise, why we disagree? I have got some varieties, you have got some varieties. So the conclusion should be tested that living condition or life is full of varieties, therefore the kingdom of life, the spiritual kingdom, must be full of varieties. That is the conclusion.

Svarup Damodar: But in the..., from our experience, it is quite clear though that matter, as such... For example, let's take a crystal of diamond or, that will be shown later in the slide, that there are... Actually crystal of diamond is built in very simple structures. It's a hexagon, six carbon atoms, one after another, forms a very simple structure. But on the other hand, now when life is in association with matter, if we take a simple cell, the cell is composed of so many big, big molecules like proteins and DNA's and all these giant molecules. And they are wonderfully complex.

Prabhupada: Yes. So what this studying of a dead man, the molecules? When a man is dead, what is the condition of the molecules?

Svarup Damodar: The molecules will deteriorate to simple molecules. It will degrade from big, big molecules to small molecules. In other words, it tends to be simple. When the living entity is out of the material body, the body itself becomes very simple.

Prabhupada: No varieties.

Svarup Damodar: No, no variety.

Prabhupada: That I explained.

Hari-sauri: The complexity is there because the spirit soul is complex.

Prabhupada: Yes, yes.

Rupanuga: The characteristic here, Srila Prabhupada says, is that life has specific complex form and activity by nature. So that this activity, complex activity...

Prabhupada: Yes. That is explained in the Vedanta-sutra, axiomatic. Anandamayo 'bhyasat (Vedanta-sutra 1.1.12). By nature, anandamaya. And variety is the mother of enjoyment. Unless... Just like these bunch of flowers... When there are varieties of flowers, it becomes a very enjoyable bunches. If you simply bring rose, although it is very valuable, it is not so enjoyable. But when there are small, insignificant leaf also, which is not valuable than the rose, but rose becomes beautiful. That is life. And who appreciates it? When a man is living. A dead man cannot appreciate this beauty. There is beauty. Combination of varieties is beauty, or blissfulness.

Svarup Damodar: Next point says, in the column of matter, it says it has temporary complex forms in association with life. On the other hand, life is immutable. From Bhagavad-gita, it has neither beginning nor end. Now this is what actually we find when a living entity is in association with matter, now matter tends to the form, into definite specific forms. Like human body has a specific form, like that, other living entities have forms. But this is only due to in association with life.

Prabhupada: Yes. As he desired, so he got a form. Karmana daiva-netrena [SB 3.31.1]. The form is offered by the Supreme Absolute Truth, as he desires. Just like the cloth has no form, but as the customer desires, the tailor gives a form suitable to his desire. Similarly, material world means we have got varieties. In the spiritual world also we have got varieties. Because we are originally of varieties of form, we are getting these varieties of body, being influenced by the modes of material nature. So I'm desiring that if I get such body, I can eat even stool. So God gives you, "All right, you take this body. Become a pig and eat stool." This is going on. Why? Your desiring. You eat, actually. So ishvarah sarva-bhutanam hrid-deshe 'rjuna tishthati [Bg. 18.61]. He's friendly, He's sitting in everyone's heart, and the living entity is desiring. So bhramayan. Desiring means he wants to go here and there. Bhramayan sarva-bhutani yantrarudhani [Bg. 18.61]. He gives a particular type of yantra, machine. This body is machine. Body is machine, everyone accepts. This is a machine. If we want to go to India, we ride on a machine, airplane, and go there. Similarly, bhramayan sarva-bhutani. We want varieties of life, and God gives us a particular machine to ride on and travel, go to heaven, go to hell, become a dog, become a cat, become a demigod, become a tree. This is going on. Transmigration of the soul. God gives us a particular type of body, and we change from one machine to another. This is transmigration.

Svarup Damodar: In this connection, one quality that is quite visible is the, that matter in association with life, there is a constant flow of matter that biologists describe as metabolism. Means we eat some food, and then prasadam is digested in specific ways by so many chemical reactions in the body. But that happens only...

Prabhupada: That is also stated, aham vaishvanaro bhutva pachamy annam chatur- vidham. That digestion is also helped by God. Is it not? Aham vaishvanaro bhutva pachamy annam chatur-vidham. Is it not in the Bhagavad-gita?

Hari-sauri: Yes, "I am the fire of digestion."

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarup Damodar: So that differentiates also the simple matter without life. For example, sometimes it has been asked whether a crystal is alive or not. This is confusing to the scientists. Sometimes they say that a crystal is behaving just like a living body, it grows and this and that, they say. But actually there is no flow of matter. That tells us that crystal is not life. There's a fundamental difference. The last point in this connection is that matter is impersonal and life has personality.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarup Damodar: So that implies that matter is unconscious and the life is fully conscious.

Vrishakapi: It's been said sometimes, Prabhupada, that you have said that some rocks have life. Some rocks, some stones, are actually souls in them?

Prabhupada: Yes. Just like in the tree there is spirit soul. Everywhere there is spirit soul, but development of consciousness makes difference. The difference between the tree and man is that man is developed consciousness. Consciousness is developed. Tree is not developed. That is difference, but life is there both in the tree and in man.

Rupanuga: What about the crystal? The crystal grows, but we don't say that the crystal has life in the usual sense of the term. Is the crystal also...

Svarup Damodar: Like diamond.

Rupanuga: Like diamond, crystal.

Prabhupada: Anywhere, wherever there is growth, there is life.

Rupanuga: So there the consciousness is simply not manifest.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Rupanuga: In crystal form. Like the stone does not show consciousness.

Prabhupada: Yes. There are two kinds of life. Sthavara-jangama. Sthavara means stationary. The stone is also stationary. It never moves. Big mountain, even though it has got life, it is stationary. And a small ant, it is not stationary. It is moving. So there are two kinds of life, stationed and moving. Sthavara-jangama.

Svarup Damodar: But Srila Prabhupada, in order to present this to scientists in general, we are saying specifically that there is no life in stone.

Prabhupada: No, that one stone may be dead. Just like a tree is standing. But when it is dead, the symptoms are different—there is no more green leaf. But the tree as it is, it is standing. But there is no more green leaf.

Svarup Damodar: Yes, but there is a basic difference.

Prabhupada: So similarly we may not understand that life, so long life is there, there is development. There is a stone in Benares, Shila-bandheshvara. Everyone knows that stone is increasing. Still, it is there. So people go to see it. One who has seen that stone ten years ago, you will see it is developed now. So life, symptom of life is growth.

Rupanuga: So Srila Prabhupada, sometimes only a single symptom of life may be demonstrated. Like in crystal there is some growth only, with no other manifestation. Then the crystal may stop growing. Just like a tree...

Prabhupada: Stops growing means dead.

Svarup Damodar: Even if the stone is growing, there is no metabolism.

Prabhupada: That is different thing. Machine..., we have said that the body is the machine. Then all mechanical arrangement may not be the same in many machines. But it is a machine.

Pusta Krishna: One question I have about this personality. We know from...

Prabhupada: Just add consciousness. When consciousness is not developed, the personality is not developed. Just like tree you cut, there is no personality, it does not protest, "Why you are cutting?" It does not scream. But a man or animal, when you attempt to injure, it screams, it protests. That means consciousness is developed.

Pusta Krishna: How can we prove that the personality...

Prabhupada: This is the proof. Consciousness developed and the symptoms are there. Just like we are studying this. Our consciousness is developed. This discussion is not possible by the animals, although it has got the all life symptom. Therefore because our consciousness is developed, we can inquire. Therefore in the human form of life it is the only business to inquire about the Absolute. Now, athato brahma jijnasa. The animals, they can inquire where is some food, where is some stool. That much. They have no other power. But when one becomes..., gets this machine of human form of body... The Vedanta axiom is "Now it is the time for inquiring about the Absolute Truth." Athato brahma jijnasa. That is real human life, when he inquires about the Absolute Truth. Otherwise, it is animal life. And there are so many department of education means inquiries. In the human society, there are departmental education. Physics department, chemist department, mathematics department, this department, that... Why? Because there are different inquiries. So Vedanta-sutra says that the prime inquiry is to inquire about the Absolute Truth. That is human life. If there is no inquiry about the Absolute truth, then still he is animal. So those who are simply satisfied with the physics and chemistry, they are still animals. They are not human beings. This is the challenge. Still they have not developed the consciousness. And that inquiry, when it is for Krishna, that is the final development. And when he understands Krishna, his life is perfect. Then he goes back again to the spiritual world. He's quite fit to live there. Otherwise, he's unfit, he must be here in this material world. And if he understands Krishna, tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti [Bg. 4.9]. This is perfection.

Svarup Damodar: One last question, this stone thing. Now as a devotee we know that matter is also eternal in the form of pradhana, described in Third Canto [Srimad-Bhagavatam] in...

Prabhupada: Yes. We have already explained, there are two energies. So if the energetic is eternal, the energy is also eternal. But the difference between the inferior and superior means one is manifested eternally and one is sometimes manifested, sometimes not manifested. That is inferior. The matter is sometimes manifested, sometimes not manifested. Just like the cloud. What is this cloud? Cloud is also manifestation of the energy of the sun, is it not? But it is sometimes manifested, sometimes not manifested. But the sunshine is always manifested. So that is the difference between the inferior and superior. Both of them are energies of the sun. But the cloud is sometimes manifested, sometimes not manifested. But the sunshine is always manifested. But as energy, they are coming from the same source. But matter is sometimes manifested, sometimes not manifested. Therefore it is inferior. And life is always manifested, therefore superior. I am soul, I am eternal. But this body is manifested now. It is existing eighty years or hundred years, but this body will be finished, finished forever. Then again another matter manifests. But I am the soul, eternal, this body or that body. Na hanyate hanyamane sharire [Bg. 2.20]. He is ever-manifest, either this body or that body, it doesn't matter. That is eternity. That is superior energy.

Primordial chemical soup gone bad

Svarup Damodar: Now understanding these basic differences, to study the origin of life has some meaning. But scientists studying the origin of life, they have no idea about these fundamental differences. So they claim that life actually is a manifestation of matter. In other words, life comes from molecules. They call it "molecule to man" theory. That we will see in the next slide. Now in this slide the molecules is called primordial chemical soup. Now these chemicals are supposed to be formed from simple, reduced substances like water and ammonia and carbon and hydrogen compounds. They are called hydro-carbons. Now these somehow, under the action of ultra-violet radiation or cosmic force, they combine together and form these amino acids. Now these amino acids, in due course of time, form the polymers called proteins. And similarly, several polymeric compounds develop and, given a long period of time, we've shown there chance and given a long period of time, then it's going to bring life, it's going to give life. That is the fundamental background of the scientific study of origin of life. This is what they have proposed. These molecules, somehow they combine, given enough length of time, billions of years as the time period, and then it's bound to happen. They say, given enough length of time...

Prabhupada: Provided he lives billions of years. But he's finished within fifty years. [laughter] And his theory remains. The rascal cannot remain more than fifty years, and he's talking of billions of years. This is the defect. Who will see after billions of years? He is finished within hundred years. These are theories only. We see practically. Egg appears like chemical combination, but if you give, proper fermentation will come, fermentation?

Devotee: Fermentation.

Prabhupada: It comes within few days. Why billions of years? Why should we wait for billions of years? This is nonsense. We see practically a bird can give birth to a child within few days, within a week. Why should we wait for billions of years? What kind of scientist you are? [laughter] Proposing to wait for millions... You nonsense. Who's going to accept your foolish theory? We see practically that within a week, and you say billions of years. Nonsense, stop that. Tell them, "You are nonsense, stop. Don't expose yourself any more." We see here, practically, within a week the life comes. Suppose the egg is a chemical composition. It is, it is chemical composition, that's a fact. But it gives life within a week. Why shall I wait for billions of years? Just see their foolishness. And this is being accepted as scientific.

Svarup Damodar: Yes, actually it is taught in all schools. There's a book called Molecules to Man. It's written by a very famous biologist, and it has been taught in school, saying that you come like this, from molecules, now you become human beings.

Prabhupada: Now what...? Leave aside man. Molecules to chicken. How it is done? What is their answer?

Svarup Damodar: They say give enough length of time.

Prabhupada: Why shall I give them? Here I see. Within a week, I get.

Pusta Krishna: They'll ask, though, "Where did the first egg come from?"

Prabhupada: First, second, no. We see that... They say you have to wait, give the molecules chance, hundreds of billions of years, then you'll see life. But I'm not going to live for billions of years, neither scientist is going to live. But here I see practically that a small egg, it gives life within one week.

Svarup Damodar: Life?

Prabhupada: Life from egg, chicken. It gives life within week. So why shall I wait for millions of billions of years? You show, you make some combination of chemical and show that life is coming within a week.

Svarup Damodar: We want to defeat this. So in the next slide, in subsequent slides, Sadaputa will show some mathematical calculation showing that this is completely wrong.

Prabhupada: Yes, it is wrong. We can see, even a layman can see. No question of mathematician, a layman can see, here within a week we see life, why shall I wait for millions of billions of years?

Rupanuga: Srila Prabhupada, it is described in the Vedas that life begins as a pea size. In the body, the womb of the mother, the human life is only pea size, emulsification, and then in nine months it develops into this very small series of chemicals and everything, into a full body.

Prabhupada: No, no. In the Bhagavata it is stated that life symptoms begins after five days.

Rupanuga: And consciousness in seven months.

Prabhupada: Not in consciousness, but development.

Rupanuga: But anyway, in nine months, it is done, not millions of years.

Prabhupada: Not nine months, seven months. Seven months the consciousness returns back and the child wants to come out. Therefore it moves, it feels inconvenient. And if he's pious, he then prays to God, "Kindly save me from this condition. Now taking birth, I shall take to Krishna consciousness and make myself free from this bondage."

Svarup Damodar: The most remarkable thing is these so-called scientists, is that they believe in the most unscientific statement. Like this long time period [Prabhupada laughs] is the most unscientific. So how can they claim as scientists?

Prabhupada: Yes. That I have already said. We see practically within five days, within seven days, the life is manifest, and these rascals say millions of years, which he'll never see, neither I'll see. And we have to accept such theory. Before seeing that life system, his life will be finished and the student also will be finished. And who is going to see?

Rupanuga: Their trick is that they say it has already happened. Over the past four and a half billion years the time has taken place for this complex form of life to evolve. So they say it has already happened.

Prabhupada: That's all right, we differ in the time. You say millions, billions, and we say seven days.

Vipina: But they'll say that it's able to happen in a couple of days because it's taken billions of years.

Pusta Krishna: The basis of their philosophy is that there's no intelligence behind it, therefore everything is chaotically going on, and by possibility it develops. But our philosophy is that there is intelligence, it can immediately happen.

Prabhupada: We see practically. The egg theory, we can see practically. It doesn't require millions of years.

Svarup Damodar: So we want to completely wipe out this theory.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarup Damodar: Actually, there is, if we think of not in terms of science, but just in terms of our day-to-day experience, in social, moral, ethical, all levels of consciousness, if one analyzes this a little carefully, the root cause of our complete ethical background at this time is mainly due to this theory that "You are from molecules, and when you finish your body you'll also go back to molecules. So don't worry about all these high-sounding philosophical words. You just enjoy whatever you want and do whatever you like to do." So this type of complete materialistic...

Prabhupada: Irresponsible life.

Svarup Damodar: Yes, meaninglessness. No meaning. So it has no purpose because of this very concept. So at least there's a strong influence, especially in the colleges and the university circles, the students...

Prabhupada: Educational circles. Yes. In the education circles they are made fools. Education means he's a more fool, that's all. That is education. Mudha. Mayayapahrita-jnana. These fools and rascals, their actual knowledge is taken away, and they are coming out as educated. That we are protesting.

Hari-sauri: You once called them slaughterhouses. Slaughterhouses of education.

Prabhupada: [laughs] Yes, I have said, yes. Means whatever little education he has, that is also finished.

Svarup Damodar: So, by the mercy of His Divine Grace, if we can eliminate this theory then we can establish Krishna consciousness on firm scientific basis.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is there. My order there.

Svarup Damodar: And there is a great necessity...

Prabhupada: Yes. To save the people from this foolish type of education.