Posing as Scientists

Founder-Acharya of the world-wide Hare Krishna Movement, Brahma Sampradaya Acharya

Science has not solved the questions

Svarup Damodar: So at some stage during the lifetime, especially in the human form of life...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarup Damodar: ...one should come to the senses...

Prabhupada: That is required.

Svarup Damodar: ...that they are suffering.

Prabhupada: Not to speak like mad man. That you are scientists, you are, "We shall solve all the questions." This nonsense thing should stop. They should come to God and understand what God says. Then their life is successful. God Himself is speaking in the Bhagavad-gita. Just try to understand. This is not meant for the dogs and cats; this is meant for persons like Arjuna. Because Bhagavad-gita was taught to Arjuna—for enlightened, ah, topmost class of men. They'll understand. Imam rajarshayo viduh. Evam parampara praptam [Bhagavad-gita 4.2]. So be yourself amongst the topmost intelligent class of men and try to understand Bhagavad-gita. Then you'll be happy.

But if you want to remain unhappy by your whims, then what... God cannot help you. But you have got the intelligence, independence.

Hrdayananda: So Prabhupada, if some people say, "Well, I have no free will," that means that they are actually lazy.

Prabhupada: Yes. You have got free will, but must utilize it properly. That is free will. Free will means to utilize it properly. That is free will.

Svarup Damodar: So people... Sometimes Krishna interferes in the free will?

Prabhupada: Ah?

Svarup Damodar: Our free will.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarup Damodar: God interferes.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is Krishna's special favor. Because by your free will you are going to hell. If Krishna interferes, that is Krishna's special favor. Just like a child is going to touch fire by free will, and father, "Eh, don't do it." That is his special favor.

Svarup Damodar: But it's called causeless mercy.

Prabhupada: Ah? Causeless mercy. His mercy is already there, but we are denying the mercy. That is the defect of material existence.

Yasodamatinandan: Spiritual master is the mercy of God?

Prabhupada: Yes. God is distributing His mercy from within and from without. "Without mercy" is the spiritual master. "Without" means externally, just in front of you.

Svarup Damodar: What is life cannot be proved by experiments. So it is not necessary to talk about life now.

Prabhupada: [laughs] Grapes are sour. [devotees laugh] The jackal's philosophy. The jackal came in the orchard of grapes and tried to take some grapes. He jumped many times, and when he failed, "Oh, there is no necessity, it is sour." It is jackal's philosophy. Sly fox.

Svarup Damodar: They say that ultimately there may be no difference...

Prabhupada: It is Mayavada, Mayavada. Mayavada says brahma satyam jagan mithya. This world is false.

Hrdayananda: They would say, "If everything has a cause..."

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hrdayananda: "...then God also must have a cause."

Prabhupada: No, that is God, which has no cause. That is our definition. Everything has cause, but when it comes to a point where there is no more cause, He is cause and effect Himself, then that is God.

Devotee (1): So then sometimes they say, "Well, what's to say there will ever be original cause?"

Prabhupada: That is original cause. Anvayad itaratash cha artheshu abhijnah svarat. Satyam param dhimahi [Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.1.1]. That is actual element, Krishna.

aham sarvasya prabhavo
mattah sarvam pravartate
iti matva bhajante mam
budha bhava-samanvitah [Bg. 10.8]

The actual element is so complete that you take the complete from the complete, still it is complete. Complete element means you go on taking hundred dollars every moment, still hundred dollars.

Devotee (1): They would say that's impossible.

Prabhupada: That is their ignorance. There is such a thing. Purnasya purnam. That is Vedic information. Therefore tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [Mundaka Upanishad 1.2.12]. [break] Why not? Just like we can see materially that sunshine, for millions and millions of years it is shiny, still it is the same temperature.

Devotee (1): But it's diminishing.

Prabhupada: Ah?

Devotee: The volume of the sun is diminishing.

Prabhupada: No, because it is material. But we can understand that the touchstone can create gold. Unlimitedly it can create gold. Touchstone. So, even in material experience we'll find there is certain things which creates unlimitedly, still it remains.

Devotee (2): There's a starfish.

Prabhupada: Ah?

Devotee (2): There is a fish called the starfish. It has five arms, and if it loses one arm it will grow that arm back, or that arm will grow back four other arms.

Prabhupada: [laughs]

Karandhara: That's just material generation.

Prabhupada: No, no. I have already said there is an idea that even in the insignificant material element we find this, that one is lost, another's grown. So when the Supreme Absolute Truth is there, how much potency? That is explained in the Vedas. Purnasya purnam adaya purnam evavashishyate [Ishopanishad Invocation]. This is the idea of the Absolute. You take the complete from the complete, still it is complete.

Yasodamatinandan: They are so foolish that they have accepted an entity called Infinity for the material purposes, from mathematics and everything, and they know that they are limited, but they will not accept that that can be a living entity which is infinite. They can accept that there's a new number called Infinity, but they can't understand that there can be a living entity which is infinite too.

Prabhupada: Yes. That number is matter. Living entity is always superior. So if in the inferior quality, matter, it is possible, how much it is possible in the superior quality.

Yasodamatinandan: And they also admit that they're limited, they also admit that they are fallible, so they also...

Prabhupada: Because it is matter, it is limited, always limited. Although it appears unlimited.

Karandhara: They say they're limited but their process is not.

Prabhupada: Ah?

Karandhara: They say their process, the scientific process, is not limited.

Prabhupada: That is another nonsense. If you are limited, how you can manufacture process?

Karandhara: They don't say... They say they haven't manufactured it. They've just discovered it.

Prabhupada: No, if you are limited, how can you discover the unlimited? Then what is the meaning of limited? You cannot discover.

Devotee (2): But if I am limited jiva, I can discover Krishna.

Prabhupada: Ah? No, you do not discover.

Yasodamatinandan: It's there in...

Prabhupada: But you know from higher authority. You cannot discover it.

[break]

Atheists are criminals

This is conservation.

Devotee (2): Actually the material world is never annihilated.

Prabhupada: Purnasya purnam adaya purnam evavashishyate [Ishopanishad Invocation].

Devotee (2): Doesn't it rest in Vishnu's body?

Prabhupada: Hm?

Devotee (2): When the material world is annihilated, it still is there, is it not?

Hrdayananda: That's in the Bhagavad-gita, the five elements are all eternal...

Yasodamatinandan: I understand that the process is eternal, Prabhupada said.

Devotee (2): No, no, no, the five elements are eternal.

Yasodamatinandan: ...each universe...

Prabhupada: What is that?

Devotee (2): The five elements are eternal.

Prabhupada: Eternal, but it is manifested and not manifested. Just like conservation of energy. That is the... Energy is manifested, sometimes not manifested.

Karandhara: But the definition of the Absolute Truth is inconceivable, so it must violate the logic.

Prabhupada: Ah?

Karandhara: Their logic...

Prabhupada: No, it's inconceivable by them, not by us. Therefore we call them fools. It is not inconceivable by us. But so you know the Truth from the Truth, Absolute Truth. A layman or a foolish boy does not know where..., which side the sun will rise. His father can say, "This side it will rise." That is the difference. Because he knows how to suggest which side, because there is reddish, how do you say? Illumination. He knows that "This side it will rise," by the symptom. Both of them, the foolish man and the intelligent man, just at present do not see that where is the sun. But the intelligent man knows "Here is the sun," although the sun is not visible both to the intelligent and foolish man. That intelligence means he knows how to find out where is sun. That is intelligence. And this is not discovery. I am intelligent speaking "This side is sun." It is not my discovery. I have heard from authority that from the eastern direction the sun rises, so I know it.

Yasodamatinandan: They're so stupid they name it Absolute Truth, but still they try to make their own theories about the Absolute Truth.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Yasodamatinandan: In the Vedic literatures it is stated dharmam tu sakshad bhagavat-pranitam [Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.3.19]. They can't even understand a simple thing.

Prabhupada: No. Dharma means the codes, the laws of God. Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam... [Bg. 18.66]. This is dharma. Krishna says that "You give up your nonsense manufactured religion. Here is religion. Surrender unto Me." Who will deny? Any religious person will accept it. Who will deny it? This is dharma. Krishna says sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam sharanam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. So who will deny? Who is that man who will deny this statement, that one has to surrender to the Supreme? Who will deny it? Therefore it is dharma. You have to submit, just like the government. The government is the supreme, who will deny? Who will deny?

Hrdayananda: Only the criminal.

Prabhupada: Only the criminal. And he'll be punished, that's all. The result, he'll be punished. Beaten with the shoes of policeman, that's all.

Karandhara: Some people get away with it.

Prabhupada: For some time he'll get away. You can get away from the police custody, but you cannot get away from maya's custody. That is not possible.

Karandhara: But because in all material examples there are exceptions, they say. In all material examples there are exceptions, so they try to find that exception.

Prabhupada: Many exceptions are there, mam eva ye prapadyante. [Bg. 7.14] Those who are devotee, they are not under maya. Mam eva ye prapadyante mayam etam taranti te. If you do not violate the laws of God, there is no question of being influenced by maya. If you surrender... ...aham tvam sarva-papebhyo mokshayishyami [Bg. 18.66]. The government protects everyone who is surrendered to the laws of the God, government. The government will give all protection. If he is a law-abiding citizen, he must be given protection, all protection.

Hrdayananda: You're too intelligent for the atheists, Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Hrdayananda: You're too intelligent for the atheists.

Prabhupada: [laughs] Atheist means criminal, they're punishable, that's all. And the more people becoming godless, they're being punished by nature.

Scientists speaking of that which is beyond their power

Devotee (2): Actually by the law of conservation of energy reincarnation can be explained.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Devotee (2): By their own law.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hrdayananda: Why shouldn't consciousness also be conserved?

Devotee (2): Consciousness is also energy.

Prabhupada: Yes. Energy of the soul. As soon as the soul is passed from the body, there is no more consciousness. It is very easy to understand. They cannot explain why the consciousness stops. They cannot explain. But that is the symptom. Yena sarvam idam, avinashi tu tad viddhi, yena sarvam idam, in the Bhagavad-gita. [Bg. 2.17] That thing which is spreading the energy all over the body, that is eternal. Now, what is that thing which is spreading the consciousness? It is the soul. So long the soul is there, you have got consciousness, otherwise there is no consciousness. Very plain word. Avinashi tu tad viddhi. Just try to understand that thing which is spreading consciousness all over the body. Just like a small grain of poison. As soon as you take it, immediately it will spread all over the blood. Even a small grain. And then how much powerful is that spiritual spark?

Devotee (2): So the grain is carried by the blood. What is the spiritual spark carried by?

Prabhupada: Spiritual spark is not carried by, but he resides within the body. He is carried by his own karma, subtle, subtle desire is carried. Everyone is carried by his desire. Why did I come here, in America? I have got a desire to preach; therefore I've come. Otherwise I had no business to come here. So desire. So desire carries you. That is, the rascals, they do not know. Desire is there, they cannot see, but desire is there. Mind is there, intelligence is there; they cannot see. That is carried. The example is given, just like the aroma of a flower is being carried by the air. And nobody can see, but one can feel, "Oh, it is very good, nice aroma. Wherefrom it is coming?" But he has no eyes to see either the aroma or the air. Similarly, the soul after destruction of this body is being carried by the desire, but they have no eyes to see what is that desire, what is that soul, what is that intelligence. They are saying, "There is no soul." This is mostly stupidity.

Hrdayananda: So...

Prabhupada: Simply stupids.

Hrdayananda: So if someone is Krishna conscious, then nothing can be hidden from him.

Prabhupada: Ah?

Hrdayananda: If someone is Krishna conscious, then...

Prabhupada: Yes, because he learned from Krishna. Krishna says avinashi tu tad viddhi yena sarvam, na jayate na mriyate va..., na hanyate hanyamane sharire [Bg. 2.20]. So we are... Krishna consciousness means you are taking what Krishna says. Therefore... [break] And then you judge in your own way, you'll find, "Yes, it's all right." Avinashi tu tad viddhi yena sarvam idam tatam. At the present moment, because your, these blunt eyes cannot see the soul, you have to learn it by appreciation. Avagama. It is called avagama. Appreciation. Just like Krishna says that tad viddhi, that, that thing which is spreading consciousness, that is soul. Now you can perceive there must be something which is now absent, otherwise why there is no consciousness? Where is the difficulty? If you do not see, you can't understand it. Just like the same example, when good aroma is carried. So somebody says, "This good aroma is coming because the air passing through a flower garden, therefore this aroma." Now this is a fact, but you cannot see the aroma or the air. But you hear from an experienced man. That is the way of understanding which is beyond your sense perception. But these rascals, simply they are depending on their blunt senses, these stupids, so-called scientists. Therefore they're stupids. They simply believe on their eyes. They do not know how much defective these eyes and senses are, incomplete. That they do not know. They believe on their defective senses. Akshaja. Akshaja, experiment. Everything experimented. Veda says don't try to explain which is beyond your sense. How you will explain? It is not possible. Achintyah khalu ye bhava na tams tarkena yojayet. [Mahabharata] It is achintya, it is beyond your conception. Why you are wasting your time?

Svarup Damodar: But a scientist will say that "I can show you what the aroma looks like."

Prabhupada: They cannot show you, that is another stupidity. Who can deny that Krishna says that avinashi tu tad viddhi yena sarvam idam, there is a thing within the body which is eternal? And what is that thing which is spreading consciousness? And you show what is that thing which is spreading consciousness. Then I shall accept you as scientist.

Karandhara: They would say, "How can we believe Krishna?"

Prabhupada: No, you don't believe, that here is a fact! That there is something within the body which is spreading consciousness. That is eternal. There's no question of believing. It is a fact. Now you show, what is that fact? Where is that fact?

Svarup Damodar: They'll say it's just biochemical reactions.

Prabhupada: Biochemical... You simply do it, rascal. You cannot do it. You rascal, simply speak, but you cannot do it. That is our contention. Therefore you are rascal. You speak something which is beyond your power. Yes. Therefore it is simply cheating people. And we, Krishna conscious men, we want to stop these cheating, any way...

Karandhara: They'd say we also cannot prove the soul is eternal.

Prabhupada: No, there is proof. There is something. We accept it, but you don't accept it. There are so many things, there are so many things. You do not see, but still you accept it. Just like without father there cannot be son. Now you have not seen your father, but mother says, "Here is your father." You have to believe it. It is a fact.

Karandhara: That example falls within the range of their experience, because they can also be a father.

Prabhupada: No, not to your experience. But a superior experience, say mother.

Devotee: Yes.

Prabhupada: Not your experience. You cannot say by experience who is your father. Your mother can say.

Karandhara: No, but the example that I have a father can be appreciated because I can also be a father.

Prabhupada: But therefore if that appreciation is there, that avinashi tu tad viddhi yena..., the consciousness is spreading from the soul, so you have to appreciate there must be something from which consciousness comes. That you cannot deny.

Karandhara: They say it is biochemical development.

Prabhupada: No, but then you replace consciousness by a biochemical combination. That you cannot do.

Devotee (2): When the baby is born dead.

Karandhara: But just because they say, "Because we can't do it yet..."

Prabhupada: No, no, no. You cannot do, therefore you are rascal. You're talking all nonsense. You cannot do it—how you speak?

Karandhara: Up till two hundred years ago they weren't able to fly...

Prabhupada: Want two hundred..., no, we want immediately, we don't want blank cheque. [ devotees laugh] Rascal blank cheque. Postdated blank check. [laughter] We don't believe. We must have real cash.

Devotee (2): And then they will admit actually that their senses are limited.

Karandhara: No, then they'll want to see the soul...

Devotee: They want to see a soul as eternal.

Yasodamatinandan: Prabhupada, actually this knowledge is so absolute, in the Bhagavad-gita it is said that pratyakshavagamam dharmyam. You can actually experience...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Yasodamatinandan: ...just by taking bhakti you can see that your purification comes...

Prabhupada: Ah.

Yasodamatinandan: ...and actually intelligence comes from Krishna. So if actually one is sincere, then Krishna will give him intelligence that "Yes, actually there is a soul, and actually I'm the Supersoul."

Karandhara: That intelligence is defective.

Prabhupada: No, no, my senses are defective. But the source from which I know, that is not defective. I cannot experimentally know who is my father. But the source from whom I understand, that is perfection.

Yasodamatinandan: In other words they'll get confirmation within their heart. They'll be satisfied, that "Yes, Krishna is God," if they are sincere.

Prabhupada: Yes. If they are sincere. That is the budha. Budha bhava-samanvitah [Bg. 10.8]. Others, rascals cannot know. Mudha naradhama. They cannot.

Devotee (2): They'll say you're sincerely brainwashed.

Prabhupada: Ah?

Devotee (2): They'll say you're sincerely brainwashed.

Prabhupada: Brainwashed? Why? These are facts.

Yasodamatinandan: But we still have some basis...

Prabhupada: [Addressing the scientists] If you cannot reply, you're simply misrepresenting scientists. We say there must be something which is spreading consciousness. Now how can you deny it? It is not brainwash. There must be something. Now if you are scientist, you find out.

Hrdayananda: That which is spreading consciousness.

Prabhupada: Yes. What is that thing which is spreading consciousness?

Hrdayananda: So if they say it is the chemical, but they can't do that, they can't...

Prabhupada: Yes, you put the chemicals. Just like I have sent my car, it is not running, so they know how it will run. They know. Therefore I say, "But if you do not know, you're speaking nonsense. You do not know anything. And as soon as you are captured, you say 'Yes, in future I shall know.'" What is this? The same, postdated blank cheque, which has no value. Will the postdated cheque, will it be accepted by anyone? Suppose you give me a postdated cheque. If I'm paying, what is this nonsense? This is all nonsense. "Future." [devotees laugh] No future, sir. Immediately. Cash payment.

Hrdayananda: So that's cheating.

Prabhupada: Ah. That is cheating.

Posing as scientists when they don't know

Karandhara: But they'll say, "But you also cannot show us."

Prabhupada: No, I can show you. I say, there must be something. There must be something.

Karandhara: We say it's a spirit; they say...

Prabhupada: Whatever it may be there, I say "something." You find out that something. I say something. I don't say spirit, matter or anything. Something.

Karandhara: Yes, they say that they look...

Prabhupada: Ah, that is their cheating. Find out now, and I accept that they're scientists. Yes. Cash money, sir. Then I shall know that you are rich man. You want to cheat me with the paper?

Svarup Damodar: That's why they'll say that "We are doing research."

Prabhupada: That means that... Then don't talk that you are scientists. You are student. You are trying to learn. You're student. You cannot say that you are scientists.

Hrdayananda: So regardless of our position, they are not qualified.

Prabhupada: Ah?

Hrdayananda: Yes.

Prabhupada: Their system is to remain a student and pose as teacher, their system. They're trying to learn it, and still they're posing as teacher. Teacher means one who knows. He does not know; still he poses in the post of a teacher. They're cheating simply. Little knowledge, cheating. Little knowledge.

Yasodamatinandan: They're simply like neti neti. "Not this, not this."

Prabhupada: "Not this." Yes. By negation. Definition by negation. Not positive definition. They say "it is not this." But what it is they cannot say. That is their process.

Karandhara: Either they accept our evidence or...

Prabhupada: No, therefore they are fools. That is a fact. Any child can understand that ... And even they're less than a child. If I say there is something, therefore there is consciousness, any boy can understand. But they cannot understand. Less than a boy.

Karandhara: They say there's no proof that something...

Prabhupada: That is the proof. That is the proof.

Devotee (2): Yes, their own law of conservation.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Karandhara: No, I'm talking about the individuality...

Prabhupada: No, no. Individuality... There are so many proofs, there are so many proofs, how you can say it is not?

Devotee (2): By their own laws.

Prabhupada: No, no, not that. It is different subject. That something is missing within the body, therefore it is dead. So what is your answer? We say something is missing. We shall decide what is that something later on. That something is missing. If you suggest that something is chemical combination, then you do it. Therefore do not know. I say something is missing. If you know, then you replace that something, then you'll know.

Karandhara: What do we say that something is?

Prabhupada: No... That everyone, any layman can understand, that this dead body is unconscious because something is missing. Any layman can understand. If you know that, then you replace it. I don't say I know, but I say something is missing. You have to accept also that. But if you know that something, then you replace it. Otherwise you also do not know. Then why you are talking of big, big word? You do not know. But something is missing. That is accepted by everyone.

Bhakta das: [laughs] So we both don't know.

Prabhupada: Ah? No, I know better than you. Because you are a fool... I'm a fool, but you are a fool and still you are posing you know. That is the difference.

Karandhara: They may say, "We don't know, but we're trying to find out."

Prabhupada: That also... Then why I shall give you better position?

Karandhara: We are also trying to find out.

Prabhupada: Then why should I give you better position? You're on the same level with me. Why you are posing as "I am scientist"? You are a fool, you admit I am fool, you admit you are a fool. But why you are posing as scientist?

Svarup Damodar: Because they will say that they have a..., they are trying to find out experimental things.

Prabhupada: You have not found out, that's a fact. As I have not found, therefore you are equally fool like me. Don't pose yourself better than me.

Karandhara: If we're both fools...

Who is the authority?

Yasodamatinandan: But at least we are accepting some authority which is supposedly very authorized by great saints, sages...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Karandhara: They have also great authorities.

Prabhupada: And all the authorities... No, therefore these persons who do not accept authority, they're rascal.

Karandhara: They are accepting authorities.

Prabhupada: But they're accepting authority who is not authority.

Devotee (4): Darwin, they're accepting Darwin as authority.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Karandhara: They say, "But why should we accept any one of your authorities?"

Prabhupada: No, then you come to argument, reason, then whether Darwin is authority or Krishna is authority, we have to decide.

Yasodamatinandan: They accept like, "I have not seen President Nixon, but I accept because I read in the newspaper." So somebody says that, well, by following this bhakti you can see Krishna, but they will not accept that.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Devotee (2): Why should they accept Krishna as authority over Darwin authority?

Prabhupada: Ah? Because He's accepted by...

Yasodamatinandan: Great sages.

Prabhupada: ...great sages, saintly persons, scholars...

Devotee (2): By many scientists.

Prabhupada: Then fool's paradise it is called... It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss. That is the only conclusion.

Karandhara: That's what they say about us.

Prabhupada: Because this world is all full of fools, so it is very difficult to push on. That we know. Therefore we should not go to the mudhas.

Svarup Damodar: Birds of a feather flock together.

Prabhupada: [laughs] Yes.

Hrdayananda: So they can go to Darwin's planet, we'll go to Krishna's planet.

Prabhupada: Yes. [laughs]

Devotee: But how will we defeat them?

Prabhupada: Yanti bhutejya bhutani. [Bg. 9.25]

Yasodamatinandan: We'll defeat them by giving them prasadam, right, Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: To cure their disease, you have to give them prasadam, and give them chance to hear Hare Krishna. This is valuable. Just like a man suffering from jaundice, he sees everything yellow, and if you say, "No, it is not yellow. White" "No, I see yellow." What can be done, then the medicine has to be given. He'll never say it is white. He'll say it is yellow, because he is suffering. You have to cure. The Krishna consciousness method is curing the disease of jaundice. We have to show them mercy. It is not a question of defeat. Just like a diseased person is talking nonsense, so doctors takes care, "All right, go on talking nonsense. Take this medicine." [devotees laugh] That is hospitalization.

Yasodamatinandan: They're already defeated.

Prabhupada: Yes, already defeated by nature. Mayayapahrita-jnana. That is stated, apahrita-jnana. Maya is taking their all knowledge, and because maya is taking their all knowledge, the preaching is required. [break]

Yasodamatinandan: So why wouldn't, why couldn't they accept that such simple thing?

Prabhupada: They're not wise. Mudha. Na mam prapadyante mudhah [Bg. 7.15]. Because they always engage in sinful activities. These are the symptoms, cause of their disease. They're sinful, they're rascal, lowest of the mankind, and whatever knowledge they are proud of, that is maya, and the basic principle is they're asuras, atheists.

Yasodamatinandan: Just like a prisoner trying to demand explanation from the King...

Devotee (2): Srila Prabhupada, when someone is sick, he willingly goes to the doctor.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is the injunction of the Vedas. Tad-vijnanartham sa gurum eva... [Mundaka Upanishad 1.2.12]. Therefore these rascals should go to a bona fide guru.

Just like if you are diseased, you are suffering the pains, so naturally you shall be inclined how to reduce the pain, how to get out of...

Devotee (2): But the scientists...

Prabhupada: But these rascals, even though are suffering three kinds of pains, tri-tapa-yatna. Just like why you are covered? Because there is pain. Severe cold, similarly severe heat. So we are suffering, either summer season or winter season. We are suffering, tri-tapa-yatna. There is suffering from our mind, from our body—this is natural suffering. There is bodily suffering, mental suffering, then suffering caused by other living entities. So we are always suffering. But still they're thinking that "We are happy." The disease is already there. Ah? Just like the Arabian do not want to give you petrol. That means there's suffering caused by other nations. So this is going on. They're simply trying to settle up. But the suffering is there. But they're not in their knowledge, that in spite of all their endeavors, the sufferings are there. What is the cause? Then whom shall I go to ask why the suffering is there? Tad-vijnanartham sa gurum [MU 1.2.12]. Therefore you must approach a person who knows how the suffering should be mitigated.

Yasodamatinandan: But there's so many so-called gurus, Prabhupada, how...

Prabhupada: Then you cannot go to the so-called.

Yasodamatinandan: How can you convince that we are the real genuine people?

Prabhupada: That you will have to learn, just like you have to go to school, there is injunction. But if you do not know what is school, go to a cow farmer, then that is your fault. If I say, "You go and purchase this from the market," suppose you have to purchase gold, but you go to a storefront, milk seller, how you will get the gold? That intelligence you must have, that where gold can be had. You must go to the person who is dealing really with gold. But if you do not know, then you will be cheated. That much knowledge you must have.

Hrdayananda: That is book distribution.

Devotee (2): Just like there are some good schools and some bad schools.

Prabhupada: And because now they're so fallen, they do not go, neither they know; therefore we are canvassing, "Here is a school."

Devotee (2): Yes.

Prabhupada: That is our business. "Here is knowledge, come on."

Yasodamatinandan: Still they won't go.

Prabhupada: That is their misfortune.

Yasodamatinandan: This is the only knowledge. Everybody else is distributing ignorance.

Prabhupada: Yes.

1. Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.1.1—Anvayad itaratash cha artheshu abhijnah svarat. Satyam param dhimahi: "I meditate upon Lord Sri Krishna because He is the Absolute Truth and the primeval cause of all causes of the creation, sustenance and destruction of the manifested universes. He is directly and indirectly conscious of all manifestations, and He is independent because there is no other cause beyond Him." [Back to Text]

2. Bhagavad-gita 10.8—aham sarvasya prabhavo/ mattah sarvam pravartate/ iti matva bhajante mam/ budha bhava-samanvitah: "I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise who know this perfectly engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts." [Back to Text]

3. Mundaka Upanishad 1.2.12—tad vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet/ samit-panih shrotriyam brahma-nishtham: "To learn the transcendental subject matter, one must approach a spiritual master. The symptom of such a spiritual master is that he is expert in understanding the Vedic conclusion and therefore he constantly engages in the service of the Supreme Personality of Godhead." [Back to Text]

4. Ishopanishad Invocation—om purnam adah purnam idam/purnat purnam udachyate/purnasya purnam adaya/purnam evavashishyate: "The Personality of Godhead is perfect and complete, and because He is completely perfect, all emanations from Him, such as this phenomenal world, are perfectly equipped as complete wholes. Whatever is produced of the Complete Whole is also complete in itself. Because He is the Complete Whole, even though so many complete units emanate from Him, He remains the complete balance." [Back to Text]

5. Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.3.19—dharmam tu sakshad bhagavat-pranitam: "Real religious principles are enacted by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Although fully situated in the mode of goodness, even the great rishis who occupy the topmost planets cannot ascertain the real religious principles, nor can the demigods or the leaders of Siddhaloka, to say nothing of the asuras, ordinary human beings, Vidyadharas and Charanas." [Back to Text]

6. Bhagavad-gita 18.66—sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam sharanam vraja: "Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear." [Back to Text]

7. Bhagavad-gita 7.14—mam eva ye prapadyante: "This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult to overcome. But those who have surrendered unto Me can easily cross beyond it." [Back to Text]

8. Bhagavad-gita 2.17—avinashi tu tad viddhi/ yena sarvam idam: "Know that which pervades the entire body is indestructible. No one is able to destroy the imperishable soul." [Back to Text]

9. Bhagavad-gita 2.20—na jayate mriyate va kadachin/ nayam bhutva bhavita va na bhuyah/ ajo nityah shashvato 'yam purano/ na hanyate hanyamane sharire: "For the soul there is never birth nor death. Nor, having once been, does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing, undying and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain." [Back to Text]

10. Mahabharata, Bhishma Parva 5.22—achintyah khalu ye bhava na tams tarkena yojayet: "One should not try to understand the supreme cause by argument or reasoning. When we are beset by some problem for which we can find no reason, there is no alternative than to surrender to the Supreme Lord and offer Him our respectful obeisances." [Back to Text]

11. Bhagavad-gita 9.25—yanti deva-vrata devan/ pitrin yanti pitri-vratah/ bhutani yanti bhutejya/ yanti mad-yajino 'pi mam: "Those who worship the demigods will take birth among the demigods; those who worship ghosts and spirits will take birth among such beings; those who worship ancestors go to the ancestors; and those who worship Me will live with Me." [Back to Text]