situation according to the Bhagavata
Harikesa: Srila Prabhupada, I was wondering
if it was more important to understand the universal make up or simply
to accept what Srimad-Bhagavatam says.
thief, cousin brother"
Prabhupada: That means you
don't accept Srimad-Bhagavatam?
Harikesa: No. But some of the
things in Srimad-Bhagavatam are difficult to understand.
Prabhupada: Rascal, fool.
Therefore it is difficult for you.
Prabhupada: You should not...
You understand or not understand, you have to accept it.
Harikesa: That is why we are
asking so many questions about the moon and the planets.
Prabhupada: Yes, so where is
the doubt? It is a fact that they did not go to the moon. That's a fact.
Harikesa: I'm just trying to
understand for preaching purposes.
Prabhupada: Why do you try to
Harikesa: Because I have a
hard time explaining about the make up of the universe as far as...
Prabhupada: That make up is
all right, what they say?
Harikesa: What they say?
Prabhupada: Then don't
understand them also, you don't understand here also. Then what you
Siddha-svarupa: What it is is
that we're automatically taking as authoritative what the scientists
say, but we don't think is authoritative what Srila Prabhupada and the Bhagavata
Harikesa: Well, the
difficulty I was having about this mountain, this Meru. It sounds...
It's very difficult to explain that to someone.
Prabhupada: No, no, that is
difficult, but everything is difficult for you. Because you want to
see. You have not seen their arrangement; neither you have seen our
arrangement. So but your proposition is you don't believe what you
don't see. You have not seen neither of them, so you have to remain
Harikesa: So the best
position is just remain silent until realization comes?
Prabhupada: No. You should...
Shukadeva Gosvami says. You have to believe that. It is an idea. If you
believe or not believe, it doesn't matter. But you can get an idea
about the planetary situation. That's all. Neither you can go there;
neither you can see it. An idea is given, that is all. But there is no
Siddha-svarupa: Did the people who said
they went to the moon, did they go to another planet?
is the benefit to human society?
Prabhupada: Yes. Or they did
not go anywhere. They were in the desert... What is that?
Prabhupada: Arizona. That's
all. That is possible.
Siddha-svarupa: Yes, it's
possible. I wouldn't put anything beyond them.
Prabhupada: They are all
doing this nonsense here on this planet and showing and advertising
Siddha-svarupa: Yes, they
made big propaganda that they would get there, and then they had to
succeed. And then they showed that they succeeded, they stopped the
Prabhupada: That one film?
Srutakirti: Oh, King Kong.
Prabhupada: King Kong. It was
made in laboratory.
Harikesa: Also 2001 was very
expertly made like that. There is one movie, 2001, which looked even
better than the moon shots.
Devotee: Someone was arguing
with me that if, like Russia and America both are enemies, if Russia
achieves something great like going to the moon, America will
immediately try to expose it. But on the contrary, America accepted all
those things. And because...
Prabhupada: Then there is
also... Both of them are thieves, they have made agreement, "Don't
expose me. I'll not expose you."
Devotee: So that is their
agree... But they are enemies...
Prabhupada: No, no, enemies,
they are not enemies. They are simply rogues and thieves, that's all.
Paramahamsa: Because if they
tried to expose Russia, they would also expose themselves.
Siddha-svarupa: It's like
these so many gurus. They're not actually enemies. They're
actually individually working to exploit the people. And if they get in
each other's way, if one person tries to take the other person's
followers, then there's some clash or something. But as long they can
leave each other alone and don't fight and work independently,
exploiting, then they live peacefully.
Bali-mardan: Honor among
Prabhupada: "Thief, thief,
cousin brother." Chora chora, pasura bhai. So far our
position is that we are not concerned with anything with this universe.
We are concerned with Krishnaloka. So whatever one may say, one other
may say, we don't care for that. We are not going to the moon planet,
Siddha-svarupa: There's a danger that we
become overly concerned with debating on them.
proof does not compel spiritual surrender
Harikesa: So our preaching
platform should be is that "You don't know." We can say, "You don't
know" or "We don't know. Why shouldn't one accept what we say over what
you say?" We should just prove that we...
Prabhupada: No, accept or not
accept, the whatever is description there, in Bhagavatam,
we are accepted.
Harikesa: So we should not
try to meet these scientists on any scientific platform? Rather, on...
Siddha-svarupa: Why not on
the platform of not being the body? Why should you...
Siddha-svarupa: Why not speak
on what we're trying to speak about instead of overly indulge in that
which is beyond debate actually?
Siddha-svarupa: Ask them,
"Are you the body?" If they say, "Yes," and then ask them to show how...
Prabhupada: Just like here in
America I have come to preach Krishna consciousness. I am not
interested for sight-seeing. That is not my business. Whatever you say,
"It is here like this," "All right, That's all, finished." Why should
we try to confirm it? Whatever you say, that's all right. Now, we are
seeing the other part; if somebody there, "It is like this," that's all
right. I'm not going to test it. So what is the use of arguing? I have
materialists, they want to argue on the platform of material
arrangements, and there's...
Prabhupada: That is useless.
Prabhupada: What he will gain
by such argument? You are not going there neither you are interested
for going to the moon planet. For knowledge sake it is stated in the Srimad-Bhagavatam,
and everyone is... Just like when we speak of the hell, everyone is
little anxious, "Where are the hell?" So that is described. In the down
this universe there are lokas.
Harikesa: So, in other words,
it would make no... It would be not a very good program to get some
understanding from Vedic astronomy, like, say, some expert Vedic
Harikesa: It would not be a
Prabhupada: No, what benefit
you will derive there? Your problem is that if at the time of death you
can remember Krishna, then it is success. We are not going to any other
planet. Yanti deva-vrata devan [Bhagavad-gita
9.25], let them go. We are not interested in these things.
Siddha-svarupa: There's only
a certain amount of time and a certain amount of..., that we can talk
about to people. And if we're talking about so many material
arrangements, then it means that we can't be talking about that which
is actually important. So we have to make a choice, whether we're going
to get straight to the point or beat around the bush. [break]
Prabhupada: ...no interest in
a particular subject, why should you bother your head about it?
Harikesa: I become very
fascinated when I read these descriptions in Srimad-Bhagavatam
about the creation and the universal...
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. That's
gist idea of the universal position. That is sufficient.
Harikesa: So, in other words,
Shukadeva Gosvami is always bringing Maharaja Parikshit to the platform
of "Why bother with all of this? Simply perform devotional service"?
Prabhupada: Huh? No, no. He's
giving full knowledge of the universal affairs. He also says at the end
that "I have described whatever I have heard." That's all.
Harikesa: So we should simply
describe it without being concerned that the scientific mind may make
sense out of it or not?
Prabhupada: What is this
nonsense scientific? That is... We reject immediately. What is
scientific? A tiny brain, what is their science? Phene bare
dhake nate ute. A snake catcher... There is a kind of snake
which has no poison. So he cannot catch even that non-poisonous snake,
and he's trying to catch one cobra. So these scientists, what is their
value? What they have done anything contribution to the world for the
benefit of the human society? They could not give any relief from the
disease, relief from old age, relief from death or birth. These are the
real problems. So what is their contribution? They have given some
horseless carriage. Again there is problem of power. What is actually
benefit they have done, that this is the benefit from the scientists?
Anything they have done, there is counter disadvantage. This is simply
waste of time. Our... We consider our human life is very valuable, and
before the next death we should prepare ourself go back to home, back
to Godhead. This is our philosophy. We cannot waste a minute time
before the next death comes. That is our philosophy. So why should we
waste our time, "Where is the moon? Where is sun?" Just have it gist
idea, that's all. [break] ...no profit. Suppose the position of the
moon is correct according to Bhagavata or according to
the scientist, what benefit we shall get out of it? Whichever may be
correct or wrong.
Siddha-svarupa: Yes, right.
Prabhupada: We are not
getting any profit out of it. So why should we bother about it? Adhara
vapare jaj akalara. We are dealing in ginger. Then what is the
use of asking, "What is the hire, I mean to say, freight for a big
ship?" If you are dealing with ginger, ginger is not sold by tons. When
you go to purchase ginger, you take one or two pieces. So those who are
dealing in ginger, what is the use of asking what is the fare of a
freight ship? We are not going to...
Siddha-svarupa: It doesn't
have anything to do... [break]
Prabhupada: ...be done by
Darwin, that he will live for fifty years; he is giving account
millions of years. "Some millions of years after, this evolution takes
place like this." Huh? Will he live for millions of years? Why he's
talking of millions of years? This is a waste of time. He will live for
fifty years or, say, utmost, hundred years, and he's talking of
millions of years.
Srutakirti: Just like that
man who wrote the letter yesterday. He's prepared to spend the rest of
his life understanding the transfer, the transmigration of the soul
instead of just accepting it in the Gita. He's going to
spend his whole life.
Prabhupada: No, no. His
non-acceptance means he's a rascal. He's a rascal. He may waste his
time in that way. What can be done? His non-acceptance means he's a
rascal. It's evident. Anyone knows that "After this, I will get another
body." You are all young men. You know that you will get after some
years a body like me. So what is the difficulty to understand that we
are changing body?
Paramahamsa: So actually it's useless to
try to give any more proof other than that.
Prabhupada: That is
sufficient for an intelligent man. That is sufficient.
Paramahamsa: So if a
scientist or someone who has some degree in science comes to our
movement, should we encourage him to try to prove through science the
Krishna conscious principle of transmigration and eternal quality of
Prabhupada: Not necessary.
Paramahamsa: Better if he
Prabhupada: It is not that if
we prove scientifically there is soul, if there is scientific proof,
not that all the people of the world will become Krishna conscious,
even if you do that. So it is useless. You simply understand what is
stated by Krishna.
Harikesa: Can a material
calculation prove a spiritual fact?
Harikesa: Can a material
Prabhupada: No. Materialists
cannot understand spiritual subject matter. It is not for them.