Jayadvaita: The scientists say that
material nature is supreme, but because we're unable to accept nature
as the supreme entity, different cultures have gotten different ideas
of God. They've made these things up. The Greeks had one idea, the
Romans had another idea, the Indians had one idea. So we've accepted
that instead of accepting nature, although nature is actually the
Prabhupada: No, God is
realized only by the devotees. Bhaktya mam abhijanati yavan yash
chasmi tattvatah [Bhagavad-gita 18.55]. So
actually, God is realized through devotion. There is no other way. So
in the proportion of one's development of devotional spirit, one
realizes God. Ye yatha mam prapadyante tams tathaiva bhajamy aham
[Bg. 4.11]. The proportion, devotion, required. But real process is
Jayadvaita: But how can that
be scientifically presented? How can we accept that scientifically?
Prabhupada: No, no, these
rascal scientists, they cannot understand God. Those who were actually
advanced, just like Professor Einstein and others, they believed so,
that there is God; there is brain. Somebody was talking about another
scientist, big scientist? Who was talking about?
Jayadvaita: That Werner Von
Jayadvaita: That space
scientist, he has accepted that there must be God.
Prabhupada: He has, yes. So
those who are really scientist...
Prabhupada? Using modern observatories or large telescopes, scientists
have photographed other brahmandas. At least to my impression
they appear to be other solar systems. Like they have a sun and planets
around them. Does that mean the material covering between the different
brahmandas is invisible?
Paramahamsa: Is that correct?
Tamal Krsna: But one of the
coverings is earth.
Prabhupada: This is the
covering of the universe. Covering you as far as you can see, that is
Tamal Krsna: Aren't there
coverings of the eight elements?
Prabhupada: Yes, that is
Tamal Krsna: So he's saying
that they have seen beyond that.
Prabhupada: How they can see?
Paramahamsa: That was my
Tamal Krsna: Prabhupada says
how can they see?
Prabhupada: No, they take all
these stars as sun. But that is not fact. Sun is one. In each universe
there is one sun in the middle. In this universe in the middle, from
the circumference, two billion.
Tamal Krsna: Two billion.
Prabhupada: And above the sun
there is moon. Then Mars, then Venus, like that. One million six
hundred thousand miles above, above, above.
Tamal Krsna: So the moon is
further away than the sun.
Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore I
say they have never gone to moon. Never gone.
Hrdayananda: What is that?
Nalini-kantha: They say that
they can see stars trillions of miles away.
Prabhupada: But they cannot
go. That's a fact. According to their estimation, the moon is the
nearest. So they cannot go there. [break] Moon is one of the heavenly
planets. So unless one is very advanced in karma-kanda,
offering sacrifices, nobody can go there. It is not so easy. Urdhvam
gacchanti sattva-sthah [Bg. 14.18]. Those who are more and more
higher status of goodness, they are promoted in the highest planet. Not
by drinking wine and driving a sputnik one can... [laughter] It is not
so easy. [break] ... [the residents there] also drink soma-rasa.
The residents of the moon, they live for ten thousand years.
Tamal Krsna: Ten thousand of
Prabhupada: Yes, deva.
Tamal Krsna: And their years
are equal to six months...
Prabhupada: Six months equal
to one day. Such ten thousand years.
Prabhupada, another field of study that Werner Von Braun is considering
is unidentified flying objects. Now, this previously was not
acknowledged by scientists, but he recently stated that when they have
sent rockets into outer space they filmed objects that there's no
explanation for. They think that they're spaceships from other planets.
Prabhupada: Yes, that's...
There is Siddhaloka—without any aeroplane they can go from one planet
to another. They are so perfect.
Paramahamsa: So these, what
they think are spaceships, perhaps are demigods?
Prabhupada: Spaceships there
are in every planet.
Paramahamsa: On every planet.
Prabhupada: But there is a
planet. The residents of that planet, they can go without any
have done another test where they think... The scientists are doing
tests where their opinion is that from certain acids life is coming. So
they think that this can only happen...
Radhavallabha: Acids, nucleic
acids. So their opinion is that this can only occur in an atmosphere of
methane. So they have understood from their telescopes that Jupiter has
methane in its atmosphere, so therefore they say, "Very soon Jupiter
will have life."
Prabhupada: Very soon? Not
now? They have got advance. Yes. [chuckles] Most of the scientists,
they think only living beings are on this planet, and all, they are
vacant. They say.
Paramahamsa: Yes. They say
the closest planet that could have life is four light years away. That
means the fastest...
Prabhupada: How there is life
within this sand? We can see.
Paramahamsa: They do not
Prabhupada: No, there is no
life within the sand?
Paramahamsa: In the sun.
Prabhupada: No, no, in the
sand. You'll find so many lives, many millions. How there is life in
the water? There is life in the water, there is life on the land, there
is life in the air, so where is there no life? How you can say there is
no life? That is foolishness. And they say that the dust brought from
the moon planet is the same. It can be found here. So why there should
not be life?
Paramahamsa: If there is life
on other planets then they assume it's in a plant form or very, very
low, like plants, bushes at the most.
Prabhupada: That is their
Tamal Krsna: Srila
Prabhupada? If these scientists, they landed on the Rahu planet, that
Prabhupada: That could be,
but some... Just like somebody was saying that there are many planets
unknown. They might have gone to some... Just like there are many parts
of the world you have never seen. Even on this planet, you cannot say
that you have seen all the parts of the world. That is not possible.
Paramahamsa: As far as these
unidentified flying objects that Werner Von Braun was recently
mentioning, he says that previously they've had many sightings. They've
seen these and filmed these, but they're afraid to release them or the
government is afraid to acknowledge them because they're afraid it
would cause a panic amongst the world.
Prabhupada: What is that
Paramahamsa: A panic that
everyone would be frightened with the fact that there are people from
Prabhupada: And they are not
frightened? Without this knowledge they are not frightened, as if they
are safe. [laughter] Are they safe without that knowledge? They are
frightened of your atomic bomb. Who is not frightened? Who is that
rascal who is not frightened? Is there any person who is not frightened?
Paramahamsa: A fool.
Prabhupada: Fool is also
frightened when there is stick. Everyone is frightened. That is the one
of the conditions of material life. As eating is one of the items,
similarly frightening is also... And the more one is godless, he is
Paramahamsa: There is this
question about these, again, UFO's, whether or not they are aggressive
or if they will bring us more knowledge than what we have. So there's
this fear, uncertainty.
frightfulness is due to unawareness of God. The more one is unaware of
God, he is more frightened. One who is fully conscious of God, he is
not frightened because he knows, "Everything is God. Why shall I
Paramahamsa: Even death.
Prabhupada: Death is already
declared that "I am death." Krishna says. So there is no question of.
Tamal Krsna: There's a
description in the Bhagavatam of Dhruva Maharaja when
he's fighting all of those demons, that he wasn't frightened at all.
Hrdayananda: So the devotee
sees Krishna in death also.
Prabhupada: Yes, Krishna is
everything. Without Krishna, there cannot be anything. Janmadyasya
yatah. The example is given: Just like the rope. Somebody is
taking it is snake. He is frightened. And one knows this is rope, he is
not frightened. So actually the one thing—God is one—He is distributed
in so many manifestations. So one realizes that it is God. By His
energy He is manifested in so many forms. So why he should be
Tamal Krsna: That's an uttama-adhikari.
Jayadvaita: Now, in the
modern days, they take it the other way, that "Everything is God, so I
can do anything."
Prabhupada: But you are not
God. You are rascal. [laughter] That is Mayavada theory—that "Because
God is everything, therefore I am God." That is Mayavada. Just like
Vivekananda said, "Why you are finding out here and there God? Here is
God, so many, on this street." That is his theory.
Jayadvaita: There was a
book-yesterday someone was showing me—where Meher Baba was saying that
everyone is in God and therefore everyone is God.
Everyone is within the space; therefore everyone is space? [laughter]
Just see the logic. Such rascals, they are God.
Paramahamsa: Last week,
Prabhupada, you may have read that the Russians and the Americans sent
up two rockets that met in outer space.
Prabhupada: Hm, so what is
Paramahamsa: Well, this is
the point, is that... It was called the Apollo-Soyuz flight. In any
have announced... They made a joint speech where they said, "Together
we can conquer outer space. That is the purpose." So now the Russians
and the Americans are trying to get... to combine in their efforts to
Prabhupada: Bora bora
goye gala rasatala, vetta gore bole katha jala. There is a
river. The horses, they can swim. So the river was so ferocious and
many horses drowned. So one vetta gora, means third-class
horse, he said, "How was the water? Let me try."
Paramahamsa: [laughing] They
Prabhupada: The vetta gora.
These are vetta gora, horses...
Satsvarupa: But they can
point to progress, not that they're all drowning.
Prabhupada: What is that
Satsvarupa: Well, people
never thought they could reach the moon. Now they think they have.
Prabhupada: So that is not
progress. Progress means when you conquer death. That is progress.
Tamal Krsna: Why is that the
Prabhupada: Because whatever
you do, death will come and take it. So where is guarantee that you
Tamal Krsna: Relatively we
everyone... The ant also thinking, "I am also some important..." That
is Krishna's proposal, janma-mrityu-jara-vyadhi duhkha-doshanu...
[Bg. 13.9]. You are trying to get out of all kinds of miserable
conditions, but here is your real misery, janma-mrityu-jara-vyadhi:
birth, death, old age... First of all conquer them. Then talk of
advance. You cannot conquer even on disease. There are so many persons
suffering from disease. You cannot stop it, and you're making progress?
What is that progress? It is all rascaldom.
Tamal Krsna: But we see that
even your devotees, they are also subject to birth, death, disease and
Prabhupada: No, we do not say
that we are making progress like you. We are trying to make spiritual
progress. We are servant of God. We never say that we are very big men,
Vaishnava. Trinad api sunichena. We think most
Paramahamsa: But what of our
efforts to conquer cancer and tuberculosis?
Prabhupada: No. Because we
are conquering to... We are trying to avoid death. Then it is...
Everything is cured. Cancer, cancer's father, grandfather, everything
is cured. So we are trying for that.
Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. That is Krishna
consciousness, that "If you simply understand Me..." Janma karma
cha divyam me yo janati tattvatah. Simply if you understand what
is Krishna, why He comes, what is the purpose, then you become
conqueror over death. That is our philosophy. Simply by understanding
Krishna. That is our progress, how much we have understood Krishna. And
when one understands fully Krishna-fully it is not possible; at least
partially—he is conquering over death. Tyaktva deham punar janma
naiti [Bg. 4.9]. That is real human life, how to conquer over
death. Aihishtham yat tat punar-janma-jayaya. All the
great sages and big, big kings, they left everything, went to the
forest for austerity, penance. Why? To conquer over death. That is the
mission. That... Everyone can do that, human life. And that is plainly
explained in the Bhagavad-gita, "Simply try to understand
Me and you conquer over death." Simple thing.
Tamal Krsna: But still we
see, the Vaishnavas... They may argue like this, that... A karmi
may say that "Still, how do we know that you have conquered over death,
because you're still..."
Prabhupada: You cannot know.
Because you are foolish, you cannot know. Just like the example is
given: there is reel. You know? What is called? The children...
Jayatirtha: Ferris wheel?
Prabhupada: No, no. In your
country there is not, but in India there is a reel, reel-like. It
rounds the thread for flying kite. What is called?
Krsna-kanti: Just a ball of
Tamal Krsna: Spool.
Paramahamsa: Kite line.
Prabhupada: Kite line? How it
Paramahamsa: How it is? It's
a line for a kite, and it's wound upon on a stick, and to make the kite
go higher you unleash...
Prabhupada: Yes. So it is
going on. Sometimes the kite is going on, it is also rounding. And when
the kite is coming down, that is also rounding. But you see one thing.
But one thing is coming down; one is going up.
Tamal Krsna: So it's
defective vision which...
Prabhupada: Yes. Just like a
cat catching a rat in the mouth, his position, and catching the cub,
kit, what is called?
Prabhupada: You see that it
is on the mouth, but one is feeling pleasure, and one is feeling
Yadubara: The materialists
say that it's very morbid to talk so much about death. They say it is
very depressing to speak so much about death.
Prabhupada: Because they are
rascals, they cannot conquer. Everyone doesn't like death, but because
they cannot conquer, they say like that, "Grapes are sour. Don't
bother." After jumping, jumping, jumping, when the grapes were not
available, "It is sour, no use."
Radhavallabha: We have also
got a method of conquering death. We are planning now to freeze... When
there is some illness that will cause death we will freeze the body,
and when the cure for the disease is discovered we will wake it up.
Prabhupada: That is same as
death. That freezing itself is death, but the rascal does not know that
it is death.
Radhavallabha: But later on
we will thaw the body out and cure it.
Prabhupada: "Later on," that
is their post-dated cheque.
Paramahamsa: But then they
say this, "In a hundred years, when we discover the cure, then we will
bring you out and cure you."
Or eat him.
Prabhupada: So you will never
discover the cure, and he will never come out. Now somebody was saying
that this freezing, the body within, they decompose. The parts of the
body are separate. That is... As we have... You take the frozen
vegetable. It is tasteless. It is decomposed.
Paramahamsa: So actually it
comes down to what Tamal Krsna asked. For example, the scientists may
say, "Well, you say that we have a life after death, that we should
conquer over death, but I cannot see it. I cannot see anyone who has
Prabhupada: You cannot see
even what is there after hundred years. What is the value of your eyes?
Why you are proud of your eyes?
Paramahamsa: So you say it's
based on faith.
Prabhupada: Not faith, it is
fact. Just like if somebody says me, "The other side is Japan." I
cannot see, so I may disbelieve. But that's a fact; Japan is there.
Tamal Krsna: But others have
Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore
you have to hear from a person who has seen.
upadekshyanti tad jñanam
jñaninas tattva-darshinah [Bg. 4.34]
means one who has seen.
Radhavallabha: How do we know
he has seen?
Paramahamsa: We have to have
faith again then.
Prabhupada: What is that?
Paramahamsa: To begin to
believe that you have seen, I must have faith in you.
Prabhupada: Yes, that faith.
How do you believe there is Japan?
Tamal Krsna: Faith.
Prabhupada: Have you seen?
Tamal Krsna: No.
Prabhupada: Then why do you
Tamal Krsna: Faith.
Every day on the news, every day on television a man comes on and he
says what's happening all around the world, and everyone accepts. No
one has ever seen any of those places.
Prabhupada: You have to
Satsvarupa: Why is it that
people are so disinclined to listen to our authority—that they all take
the scientists' authority—if it's just one authority or another?
Prabhupada: Because they are
nondevotee. That is the defect. More the nondevotee, more rascal mudha,
dushkritina, mudha... They cannot. Dushkritino mudhah, na
prapadyante. Mayayapahrita-jñana: "Knowledge has been taken
away by maya." More you become atheist, the more you become
blind. This is the point. We have given this maxim in our Back
to Godhead [magazine]: "Where there is God there is no
nescience." ...[We are] preaching, back to God. "If you want to know
things are there, then come back to God. Don't go this side; come this
side." This side means he will be drowned. There are two sides. If
somebody unnecessarily goes this side, he is death, and this side, he
is saved. So one who is going this side we are asking back to Godhead,
"Come in this side." If one goes this side, he will find the downtown,
so many nice buildings, parks and everything. And the boy who goes this
side, he will die.
Prabhupada, in Svarupa Damodara's book he gave the example that "Why
does the red apple fall off the tree but not the green apple?" So the
scientists say that when the apple gets ripe, certain acids rise in the
stem and weaken it and it falls off the tree. There's no need for God
or anything like that. It's automatic.
Prabhupada: No, no, there is
no question of God, but with the gravitation why the green apple is not
Radhavallabha: Because the
stem is very strong on a green apple, but on a red apple it is weak.
Prabhupada: That means it is
conditional; gravitation works on condition. It is not final. Under
certain condition it works. Therefore, then you have to accept
condition. Under such and such condition it falls.
Radhavallabha: So these
conditions are being set up by nature. There is no need for a
Prabhupada: Whatever it may
be, you cannot say that gravitation draws things downward. If
gravitation... You will find cloud, thousands of tons of water. Why it
is not down? Cloud, why it does not come down?
Radhavallabha: Because it is
in vapor form. It has not condensed yet.
Prabhupada: Whatever it may
be, but it is weighty.
Radhavallabha: It is waiting
for the proper temperature.
Prabhupada: Then everything
is conditional. Everything conditional.
Radhavallabha: So these
conditions are part of nature.
Prabhupada: That is all
right. But you cannot say, "This is the law: 'Everything will come
down.'" These things are not coming down. So if there is... Not only
this cloud, so many planets, hundreds and millions and millions of
tons, how they are flying? How they are stayed on the sky? Everyone
Radhavallabha: Each planet
has its own gravitational force.
Prabhupada: That may be. I
say it is condition. Under certain condition... When Ramachandra throws
stones for a bridge, the stones were floating. The stones did not go
Radhavallabha: Well, we can
see in these inborn laws of nature all these things are going on. We
don't see where there is need of some person behind it. These things
are going on. Each planet has its own gravitational force; therefore
they are balancing each other in the universe.
Prabhupada: You do that. You
float one ball if you are so confident.
Radhavallabha: I cannot do
it, but nature is doing it.
Prabhupada: Therefore you are
rascal. You do not know who is doing. That is rascal. You are thinking
everyone like you. That is nonsense. Atmavat manyate jagat:
Everyone is thinking that 'Other party is like me.'" [break] ...so many
conditions are fulfilled, then some action takes place, five. There are
mainly five causes. [break] ...God throws a stone, big stone, it floats
because He is God. When you throw a stone, it will drown. When God
makes one big planet floating, that is possible. You cannot do it.
Therefore you have to accept.
Radhavallabha: [break] ...On
a small scale we have set up...
Prabhupada: Therefore you
accept that you are small. You are not the great. God is great; you are
small. So claim a small credit, don't claim as good as God. That is
your foolishness. Because we are part and parcel of God, we have got
capacity to do part and parcel, not the whole. So remain small, don't
try to become big. Remain servant of God. Don't try to become God, that
is foolishness. That is our philosophy.
Trinad api sunichena taror api sahishnuna. Remain humble and
meek. You will understand God.