the difference between this dead man and living man?
Bahulasva: That psychologist gentleman has
to understand he's not the body first.
Prabhupada: Hm. So, what did
Bahulasva: Yeah, he believes
that there is soul and that you're not the body, and he's hoping that
he'll be able to become more serious about studying Bhagavad-gita
to understand that more clearly.
Prabhupada: So let him prove
there is soul. That will be great service to the western world, if a
scientist and philosopher, psychologist proves that "Here is soul."
Bahulasva: Srila Prabhupada,
how should they set out to prove it, though? We've proved it by giving
scriptural evidence. But how should a scientist do it?
Prabhupada: No, we prove it
as a living and dead man, we give that proof. What is the difference
between this dead man and living man? What is losing? What is missing?
This is the proof. If... I so many times spoken that son is crying, "My
father is gone, my father." "Where is your father gone? He is lying
here. So what is gone? You have not seen it." This is the proof. Why do
you cry, "Father is gone"? Father is lying here. Why do you say,
"gone"? So that means what is gone, you have never seen it. Now you
perceive, "Yes, something was there. Now he is gone." This is the proof.
Bahulasva: So our statements
are also backed up by observation. The Gita's statements
are also backed up by observation.
Prabhupada: Yes. Science
means observation and experiment. That is science. You observe that
this man is moving. There is something... [sound of someone calling
from a distance, Prabhupada calls:] Invite him. You are invited come.
Prabhupada, the psychologist is in ecstasy every time he speaks to you.
Prabhupada: Hmm. No, he is a
good boy. Although I say, "You do not know anything." [laughter]
Tamal Krsna: He didn't become
Brahmananda: He admitted.
Prabhupada: He is good man.
Bahulasva: He has some
Guru das: You tell everyone
that and they come back for more. [Prabhupada chuckles]
Bahulasva: So science means
observation, Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Yes, observation
Bahulasva: And experiment.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is
Guru das: To make an
experiment by chanting Hare Krishna.
Prabhupada: No. Here is
experiment, just like the dead man and living man. First of all, you
observe that this man is moving or this animal is moving. There is some
moving force. And the experiment is when the man and animal is dead,
you can understand that the moving force is gone. This is experiment.
Tamal Krsna: Your car is
here, Srila Prabhupada.
Jayatirtha: We can walk
further if you like.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. [break]
psychologists feel limited by the particular means of experimentation
that have already been used by other psychologists.
Prabhupada: What experiments
they have made?
Siddha-svarupa: Well, these
particular tests and so on that they're using. So it seems that he
ought to change. Because somebody started doing that, right? I mean,
they didn't always use those tests. They always change different kinds
of tests and everything. Instead of being limited, he should offer a
new method of observation, a new method of tests.
Prabhupada: It is simple, but
because of their bad education, they cannot understand the simple thing.
Bahulasva: They want
Prabhupada: Complicated. The
experiment is there. Observation is there. Everything is there. And the
eternity is there. Krishna begins like reasonable gentleman, not
humbug. He says, tatha-dehantara-
praptih [Bhagavad-gita 2.13], very good example,
that "As in this, body is changing from this stage to this stage, this
stage, this stage, step by step, similarly," tatha
dehantara-praptih, "similarly another body." So where is the
difficulty to understand? So if this is accepted, then immediately you
can accept that the soul which is changing body, he is eternal. Na
jayate na mriyate. Therefore he was never born, never died.
Jayatirtha: When Arjuna came,
he was suffering so much distress, but Krishna did not give him any
psychological test to see what was the matter with him. He immediately
knew it was because he was in the bodily conception of life.
Tamal Krsna: Prabhupada, the
thing is that you say that it is life which makes matter move, but the
scientists, they don't accept that.
Prabhupada: Because they are
rascals. How it is moving?
Tamal Krsna: They say it's a
certain combination of matter.
Prabhupada: You make it. That
means experiment. You simply observe, but you have no experiment.
Therefore it is not science.
Brahmananda: You have to
Prabhupada: Yes, demonstrate.
You make in the laboratory that things are moving by this combination.
Otherwise it is useless. Therefore two things must be there:
observation and experiment, practical and theoretical.
Theoretical—something is there who is moving. Now you make it practical
to see that this combination... Just like they say chemical
combination. Now take the chemicals and make experiment.
Tamal Krsna: No, the thing is
that they are now in the test tube they are making experiment, and they
are putting a certain set of chemicals together and maybe some soul
takes shelter of those chemicals. But the scientists say that they get
the credit for it. They don't say that the soul has entered. They say,
"No, we have put different elements together, and now some..."
Bahulasva: They have never
done that successfully.
Prabhupada: And even they are
successful, what is credit? So many living entities are coming every
minute, and if after thousand years, they can create one ant, so what
is the credit? [laughter]