differentiated according to modes of nature
Svarup Damodar: The biologists have a
difficult time in defining species.
It's not very clear, the way they do it. Now we want to bring up the
concept that the combination of the three modes of material
nature produces all these different varieties of species. We say
8,400,000. And on that line...
Svarup Damodar: Yes. Now we
want to make a very clear distinction of, say, the mode of goodness and
mode of passion and ignorance. And we want to give some very specific
Prabhupada: The demigods,
they are in goodness. And the human being in passion, and the animals
in ignorance. That is general division.
Svarup Damodar: What about
the plants and other smaller...?
Prabhupada: That is also
animals, less, still more in dense darkness.
Svarup Damodar: The other
point along this line, we also wanted to, even in the same animal or
Prabhupada: No, no. You can
very minutely distinguish, this is the general division. Then there is
minute division. That is numbering about 8,400,000.
Svarup Damodar: Under that
category, that minor divisions, now let's take the animals. Even in the
animal kingdom, there are some animals which are influenced...
Prabhupada: From the animals
down, it is all ignorance.
Svarup Damodar: Animals down,
Rupanuga: What about like the
cow, little goodness in it, mixed?
Rupanuga: And the lion,
Prabhupada: Yes. No,
everywhere there is mixture. Otherwise, how it comes to 8,000,000?
There is mixture. But this is the general division. Now you cannot make
how much passion, how much goodness is there. That you can understand
from the behavior. But this is general division. We can speak of
general division. The minute division is made by nature. That nature's
study, one who can study nature, then he can do that.
Rupanuga: That means to study
the activity, psychology of the...
Prabhupada: So all the
qualities are working, mixed up practically. But prominently like this.
Here you cannot have any quality completely of that quality. Other
qualities are there, but prominently that particular... Just like
demigods. They also become sometimes passionate, sometimes ignorant. So
in this material world it is very difficult to find out pure modes of
nature in anything. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gita.
Sometimes some quality prominent, sometimes some quality is prominent.
So the best thing is to become transcendental to all these qualities. Sa
gunan samatityaitan brahma-bhuyaya kalpate [Bhagavad-gita
14.26]. That is devotional service. Shuddha-sattva, completely
pure goodness. That is wanted.
Svarup Damodar: That is not
the direction that we were thinking. We were thinking that we could
give some specific examples. We understand that the modes of nature are
mixed, but even then... Now let's take birds. A bird like swan likes to
be very clean habit, likes to live in a nice environment like lotus and
clean water, but on the other hand birds like eagle, very passionate,
Svarup Damodar: Crow is
rather very ignorant and wants to be very dirty, whereas...
Prabhupada: So what you will
do by such study?
Svarup Damodar: By this...
Prabhupada: Generalize the
divisions, that's all. But none of the divisions are spiritual
. Our aim is to come to the spiritual platform. Traigunya-vishaya
veda nistraigunyo bhavarjuna. Not that to increase goodness and
keep a less quantity passion and ignorance. Be completely free from all
the three qualities, that is required.
So some other
living entity who is prominent in this quality, prominent that, it does
not make much difference. So long he is in the material qualities, he's
entrapped. So get him out of this condition and put him into the
spiritual platform. That is the solution. Nistraigunyo bhavarjuna.
In the material world if you think that the quantity of goodness is now
big than the other modes of nature, that does not make a solution. Next
moment the passion will be prominent, next moment the ignorance will be
prominent. You cannot check it or fix him up in one quality. It is not
possible. That is not possible. The best thing is to bring him to the
unconditional stage, transcendental stage. Sa gunan...
Keep him engaged in devotional service, he is free from influence of
all these qualities. That is wanted.
Svarup Damodar: That is on a
human platform, but we wanted to appeal purely on a scientific level to
the scientists. Now in order to bring these concepts that these three
modes of nature, because of mixing of these three modes of nature it
produces different species, varieties of species... Now this is
completely unknown to them. They have no idea about these modes. So
somehow we thought if we bring some specific examples like this, that
looking the products of nature as a source, not worrying about
transcendental or not...
Prabhupada: What is the use
of such things? If you particularly study that this living entity is
now in this mode, say goodness fifty percent and passion ten percent,
in this way, but it can change at any moment. You cannot fix it up.
Svarup Damodar: That is good,
because if we argue this we can always defeat this concept of
evolution. Our main point is to defeat the concept of evolution.
evolution of the body, but transmigration of the living entity from one
body to another
Prabhupada: No, no. It is not
evolution. The species are already there, 8,400,000. Now the living
entity is changing the position. The status is already there.
This is the position. Just like there are apartments are already there.
Sometimes I am coming here, sometimes going there, but this is the
position. I'm not fixed up. Similarly, living entity, as soon as he
changes his mind, the apartment is ready. Here is your position. Again
he changes, "Here, here is your position." They are already there. Not
that for him especially being created. The species are already there.
As soon as he fixes himself up particular species, he's transferred, daiva-netrena
karmana. He gets a similar body, "Come on, here, take this
body." Yantrarudhani mayaya [Bg. 18.61]. These are
explained. So he's transmigrating, he's not fixed up. Bhutva
bhutva praliyate [Bg. 8.19]. He gets, by his desire, he gets a
particular body. Then after some time he changes to another body.
Svarup Damodar: The question
is, now we want to argue that "How is it possible, now you are claiming
that life is coming from molecules? If you claim like that, then how is
it possible that in the same species, let's say in the birds, that
these qualities are spreading?" Some birds we see behave like a little
influenced by the modes of goodness, though it is mixed. Like swan, we
are taking that example. But some are like eagle, very passionate,
wants to kill small birds as their food, and on the other hand, birds
like crows, they like just to be completely ignorant, or they like to
survive in a dirty environment. Why? Is this possible just from the
concept of molecular evolution? It's completely, it's failing. They
have no explanation along those terms. So we thought to bring up these
points, it will be very clear that this evolution is completely wrong.
So we want to use that...
Prabhupada: There is no
question of evolution. It is already there. This is a wrong theory. The
monkey is there, the man is there. The soul is going from monkey to
man. It is not the evolution. Just like you have got apartment, ten
rupees, five rupees, twenty rupees, thirty rupees, like that. Now, as
you pay, "Come on, here." There is no question of evolution. It is
already there. Jantur dehopapattaye. These dehas,
these bodies, are already there. So immediately it develops a
particular type of desire, "Yes, come here, sit down." First class,
second class, third class, fourth class is already there. As you pay,
"Yes, come here." It is not evolving; it is already there. He is
transferred from one apartment to another. This has to be convinced. We
don't find that monkey's body became a human body. That is not in the
experience, anyone. The monkey is there, the human being is there. But
the soul is going from monkey's body to human's body, or monkey's body
to another body. That is by superior administration. Their theory is
the body is evolving and some body is missing. Nothing is missing.
Every body is there. The soul is being transferred from one body to
another. Asatims chaturam chaiva laksams jiva jatishu. Jati
means the form of the body. So the form of the body is already there,
and the living entity is being transferred from one body to another.
This is called transmigration. We have come here, not that that room
developed. This room is here, that room is there, but I am
transferring. Because they have no idea of soul, they are thinking that
this nice room, now transform into this room or this room, transform...
This is foolishness. A civil man transferred into jail—not that his
civil house becomes jail. They are thinking wrongly like that—Darwin's
theory. Body becoming changed. No. The different types of bodies are
already there. The living entity is being transferred from one body to
another. Just try to explain. So evolution you take that this apartment
is better than that apartment, that apartment better than, and a living
entity's going from one after another. So this is evolution. That you
are now getting salary, one thousand dollar, now you get fifteen
hundred dollars. So according to your qualification, you are getting.
Svarup Damodar: When we talk
about evolution, in our understanding, evolution is evolution of
Prabhupada: Yes. We say karma.
Evolution of karma. So karma is also based on
consciousness. If you like to do a particular type of work, that can be
process of transcending the modes of ignorance, passion and goodness
Svarup Damodar: So, Srila
Prabhupada, you think giving examples, or like making a division of
these animals under category of these three modes is not proper? After
all, all the modes are mixed. Now can we say that a cow is, although
there are other modes, but predominantly the mode of goodness?
ignorance. Cow, just like cows, or, yes...
Svarup Damodar: Cows, then
tigers, lions we can give predominantly passion. Now coming to either
camels or pigs we can call ignorance.
Prabhupada: So many, very
subtle, subtle mixture. That subtleness of mixture is impossible for
you to analyze.
Svarup Damodar: Yes, that's
true. So we shouldn't do this?
Prabhupada: Therefore it is
said daiva-netrena, superior administration. You cannot do it.
It's taking place
in this way, that's all. That much you can say. You cannot actually
analyze a particular body, what percentage of this or... That's
Svarup Damodar: Actually, we
are not analyzing, but we're just giving this by seeing from practical
Prabhupada: That is already
there, one life after another. That is already there by superior
arrangement. Very fine arrangement, exactly to the percentage of
different qualities, the body is already there. Simply the soul has to
be put into that body by superior arrangement. Say, first-class
passenger, what does he require? The apartment is already made by
expert, what is needed for a first-class passenger?
Svarup Damodar: He needs some
more money. He must be rich to get a first-class apartment.
Prabhupada: Yes, but so far
arrangement, just like Western hotels, everything is so complete. They
know what a first-class man wants. So expert. They have already made.
You don't require to say anything, that "I want..." So complete. But
the steps are already mentioned. Aquatics, then plants, vegetation,
then insects, reptiles, then birds, then beasts. These are the
Svarup Damodar: So we'd like
actually to bring out very clearly why the swan is different from a
crow. What is it. What makes it different. Why a swan behaves this way
and a crow behaves this way.
Prabhupada: According to
combination of these modes.
Svarup Damodar: That's why we
want to bring out, that modes of nature, that can explain so many
things so nicely, the difference, but science has no background on that.
Prabhupada: That means you
have to analyze different bodies. But that is described in the Srimad-Bhagavatam,
which apartment is better than
the other apartment, there is description. Just like a dog's body is so
made that two furlongs away some newcomer is coming, immediately he
will bark, he can immediately understand, perceive. He can smell that
"Somebody is coming who is not known to me." Is it not? So he has got
that special quality. Even in animals we will find. A fish in the
water, two miles away there is some enemy, they can understand by touch.
Svarup Damodar: Science calls
those chemical senses.
Prabhupada: These are
described in the Bhagavata, the different perception of
different senses, how one is prominent in one animal body. That is
Rupanuga: Like you have the
example the tongue for the fish, an elephant, his genital, and you gave
some other, these are there in the Bhagavatam. The deer,
Svarup Damodar: That's due to
the combination of the modes, as a result of the mixing of the three
modes in different percentage. So we can even just mention like that in
Prabhupada: That you can take
from the authoritative statement you find.
Svarup Damodar: So shall we
make an attempt to give these examples like this, or just mention it?
What's better? What do you think?
Rupanuga: Well, one thing,
the biologists haven't even really counted up many so-called species
themselves. So why should we get into such..., worry about the details?
They don't have the detail themselves.
Svarup Damodar: No, not
details, but we wanted to show that there is such thing as the three
modes of nature, they are working, not just by chemical combination
these things are produced. We want to say that the three modes are
there. Because of the working of the...
Prabhupada: No, the three
modes induces chemical composition. Then RNA, DNA [laughs]...
Svarup Damodar: But this is
very unique in science itself. It's a very novel concept just from
Devotee: The scientists have
a desire to explain things. They like to see that you can explain so
many different things. Perhaps it doesn't have any real utility to
Prabhupada: So, as far as
possible, you can give explanation from Bhagavatam
. Otherwise, how you can...
So the general
division in the higher planetary system is the devatas,
beginning from sun, moon and other planetary systems, they are in modes
of goodness prominent. Less, below that,
bhur bhuvah, they are passionate, and below that, they are
Devotee: Do the number of
demigods have something to do with the number of species, like there
are thirty-three million demigods?
Prabhupada: There are
thirty-three million. Thirty crores. There are also divisions,
Svarup Damodar: Do they
belong to these species? They are also included in these eight million
four hundred? These Gandharvas?
Svarup Damodar: So they are
counted, what, as human beings?
Prabhupada: Some of them are devatas,
some of them are human being.
Rupanuga: When we say four
hundred thousand species of human beings, that doesn't include all the
Prabhupada: The demigods are
like human beings.
evolutionary process means to bring the living entity to the platform
of goodness and then transcend that platform also, come to pure
goodness. That is devotion.
you fit for A class, B class, C class or D class?
Devotee: Prabhupada? You
explained that all those forms are already existing. What is the
meaning of all those forms if there is no one inhabiting them? Why is
it that they all exist without...
Prabhupada: No, no, how you
can say nobody is inhabiting?
Devotee: You said that they
are there, you just go to the different forms. So that means they are
existing without anyone living there?
Prabhupada: No, form, a class
of form. It can be immediately, that A class, B class, C class, D
class. So if you are fit for D class, immediately form for you, a D
class body is there, made.
Svarup Damodar: It is also
existing in the sense that in the unmanifested form, before it is
manifested, the form is there.
Prabhupada: No, no. That is
species. Form is there already. They are existing. So you require to
get another form, but the same class. First-class compartment is there.
If it is, one bogey is already, first-class filled up, then railroad
company brings another bogey and gives place to the passengers. That's
all, there is no difficulty. What is the difficulty? Put him into this
particular mother's womb and he gets a form, that's all.
Parasya shaktir vividhaiva shruyate [Chaitanya-charitamrita
Madhya 13.65, purport].
Don't compare Krishna's power with your power. He can do anything,
Svarup Damodar: So called Achintya.
(pause) What is the biological concept of species?
Sadaputa: All they can do is
base it on the similarity of what the animals look like. They have
trouble counting species.
species going on all time
Sadaputa: Are there different creations and
annihilations of species?
Prabhupada: There are
different, when Brahma goes to sleep, that is one kind of devastation,
and when he dies there is one kind. And during Brahma's days there are
other devastations, manvantara.
Sadaputa: After a
devastation, do the...
Prabhupada: Different classes
of devastation. There are many devastations during Brahma's day, and
there is another devastation during Brahma's sleep, and another
devastation when Brahma dies.
Svarup Damodar: And during
different Manus also.
Prabhupada: That is day. Such
devastation takes place during Brahma's day. Fourteen Manus.
Svarup Damodar: Do we know
that in detail, Srila Prabhupada? What type of species are extinct? Not
all the species extinct. As it is during Brahma's day, that partial
annihilation, devastation, now some species are extinct?
Prabhupada: No species
extinct. What you are reading? This is garbage.
Svarup Damodar: The physical
Prabhupada: No, nothing is
extinct. Everything is going on.
Svarup Damodar: At that
point, they are going to come up with the point that "How about
dinosaurs?" They are going to ask like that.
Prabhupada: That is
imagination. Where is dinosaur finding?
Svarup Damodar: They say they
have all the bones.
Prabhupada: No, they are
describing maybe another animal. That is existing. That is Timingila,
they can swallow up big, big whale fishes. That big, bones, they are
living still. Nothing is extinct. They are already there.
Rupanuga: Did these dinosaurs
exist, or is it just their imagination?
Prabhupada: The big animal
exists. I call it "dinosaur" or "finosaur", that is your choice. Big
animals existing. Timingila, I said the name, Timingila, still exist.
Rupanuga: Still exist.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. They are
always existing. Water elephants. There are elephants in water.
Rupanuga: So there is no such
thing as extinction.
Prabhupada: No extinction,
there is no question of extinction.
Rupanuga: If these animals
were on this planet some millions of years ago, they are still here, is
Prabhupada: Yes. What do you
know what are there within the water? You can take information from the
shastras. It is not possible for you to see and go into
the water, how big, big animals are there.
Hari-sauri: But it's possible
that an animal may disappear from one planet, but still be on another
planet, though, like that.
Hari-sauri: Because they
claim that even within recorded history...
Prabhupada: They claim
everything. That is... There is no question.
Svarup Damodar: ... fossil,
they are called fossil record.
Prabhupada: That is another
thing. You can get a dead animal's body, but what is that?
Svarup Damodar: They claim
that many species are extinct.
Prabhupada: How they are
Hari-sauri: Well, like, they
say that within modern history,
Prabhupada: First thing is
they are all imperfect speculators. So what is the value of their
sport? We don't take any value of it.
Rupanuga: They don't know
where these animals are, that's all.
Prabhupada: They, simply like
child, they are speculating. If he's imperfect, then what is the value
of his speculation? There is no value.
Svarup Damodar: But then what
happens at the time of partial devastation? At the end of Manu, the
partial devastation, what happens to the species?
Prabhupada: Happens means
these different ways become destroyed, but again, during creation, they
Hari-sauri: The same species.
Svarup Damodar: Is it also—I
don't know if this is speculation or not—but is it, Srila Prabhupada,
is it also not possible, say, at the time of creation, now those
material bodies are going to be created, also possible not to manifest
all of them but some are not still manifested?
Prabhupada: Yes, they are
created. What is the wrong there?
Svarup Damodar: They are
created, but not all of them. Not all the bodies...
Prabhupada: Why? Why not? If
some of them can be created, why not all of them? If some of them can
be created, all of them can be created. Why do you say some of them can
be created, not all of them?
Svarup Damodar: No, all of
them can be created, but according to the karma-phala, or
action of the individual, so there may be some time to...
Prabhupada: Yes. The last
devastation he died, but his karma-phala remained. So he has to
appear in that form, begin his work.
Svarup Damodar: So in
principle, at the time of creation, all forms must be created.
Prabhupada: According to...
Rupanuga: Because there is
always someone to occupy some form.
Prabhupada: Someone is ready
Prabhupada: It is called suptotthita-nyaya.
Suptotthito-nyaya. Just like you are sleeping, you forget
everything. And as soon as you get up, immediately remember, "I have to
do this." Immediately your duty is present. Immediately you understand
"I have to go here, I have to do, I have to purchase..." But while
sleeping, he forgot everything. It is like that. When devastation,
everything is finished. Again creation, this suptotthita-nyaya,
he's coming in this body, he's coming this body, so many. Unless he has
got the particular body, how he can work? Unfinished.
Sadaputa: I was thinking like
in Bhagavatam, it says Chakshusha-Manvantara, Daksha recreated
all the necessary living beings. So I was thinking it must have been
that they were destroyed in a devastation and that he recreated them.
Sadaputa: We were trying to
see how we could explain these fossils that geologists speak of, and it
seems like one way of looking at them.
Prabhupada: But their
calculating mind, in whatever you explain you have to give reference to
the shastra, and they will say it is, what is called? Myth, mythology.
They'll refuse immediately that thing. But you have no other source to
explain. And they will take it immediately, "It is all mythology."