Prabhupada: Yes. We are all eternal. That
is nityo nityanam. I have already explained. Nitya
means eternal. There are two eternals: one chief eternal, God, and one
subordinate eternals, they are plural number. God is one, and we are
many. Father is one; the children are many. Similarly, both the father
and the children are eternal. God is not created, and the childrens are
not created. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita, na
jayate na mriyate va. All these living entity, they are never
created; neither they ever die. Nityah shashvatam na hanyate
hanyamane sharire [Bhagavad-gita 2.20]. They are
eternal, ever existing. Even after the destruction of the body, they
are not annihilated. So God is eternal. That I have already explained.
And we living entities, we are also eternal. How the son can be
otherwise? If the father is eternal, the son is also eternal. The son
cannot be... Because son is the expansion, part and parcel of the
father, so all the qualities of the father are there. The only quality
difference is the father maintainer and the sons are maintained. That
means the father has got unlimited resources to maintain the sons, and
the sons, they have no resources. They are maintained by the father.
This is perfect philosophy. Otherwise, if you are self-sufficient, then
why you go to church and beg father, "Give us our daily bread"? That
is... That means you are maintained. You are begging the father,
"Please maintain us." So if the Supreme Being, who is maintaining
millions of trillions of living entities, He is great, or the living
entities who are maintained by God, they are great? Therefore God is
great, and we are subordinate. This is natural conclusion. How you can
go otherwise? If you are self-sufficient, why go to church and pray,
"God, give us our daily bread"? Are you independent?
Guest (6): No. I am a
Prabhupada: That is
subordinate. Yes. Everyone is creature. He is the supreme creature.
Guest (6): I am servant of
God. He is my life. Without Him, I can't live. I understand what you're
saying, but I believe that our tradition from the Old Testament says
that we were created by God.
Prabhupada: In one sense we
are created, just like father creates the sons, not the sons create the
father. In that sense we are created. [pause] So taking this word, that
"sons were created," so the father existed before our creation. So He
is not of the same quality again.
Guest (6): It's a mystery. We
can only bow down before Him then.
Prabhupada: That is our
business. [laughter] This word, "creation," is applicable in this
material world. In the spiritual world there is no creation, the father
and the son existing eternally. When we come to this material world...
Material world means it has got beginning, and it has got end. And
spiritual world means there is no beginning, no end. That is sanatana,
Guest (1): That is the point
of a steady state theory of the universe also, that it... Arthur
Hubble, I think, in Oxford. He talks about a steady state theory of the
universe. But the whole idea is that the whole universe has always been
there, and it will always be there. It might change in shape, like on
the expressway in the morning. Any one morning you may look at it, blue
car is here and the red car is there and another day the green car
might be in the same place. So there might be transitory change, but he
maintains that it has always been there. So I can see the point. There
is a big controversy going on, and he might be very well right.
Svarup Damodar: He's talking
from a physical concept.
Guest (1): The big bang
theory and the steady state theory of the universe. And they have come
up with a cyclical theory of the universe also, that there is a big
bang and the universe expands and then comes back again, like in Vedic
philosophy, they have one mantra...
Prabhupada: Hm, brihattvad
brihannatvad iti brahma.
Guest (1): So they are coming
back to that kind of thing that we have not solved any questions. From
the point of view of science things are changing all the time. It is
very exciting. The Old Testament too and the New Testament, I don't
Guest (3): ...can tie in with
the idea of the spirit being eternal in Christ, and I believe Christ
himself said that we have all been with him from the beginning.
Guest (1): And there is no
beginning. According to the ideas, one group of science data, there is
no beginning, and therefore there is no end.
Guest (5): It's the alpha and
the omega then. Swami, do you see a difference or a conflict between
being a devotee of Jesus and a devotee of Krishna? May one be both?
Prabhupada: A devotee means,
real devotee means, he has no purpose for material gain. That is real
devotee. Now we have to see what kind of devotee he is. There are two
kinds of devotees: with purpose and without purpose. The "without
purpose" devotee is pure devotee, and "with purpose" devotee, they are
material devotee. That is distinguished in Bhagavad-gita,
jnani cha bharatarshabha
chatur-vidha bhajante mam
(janah) sukritinah arjuna [Bg. 7.16]
are pious men and sinful men. Sinful men cannot become devotee. Pious
men can become devotee.
tv anta-gatam papam
bhajante mam dridha-vratah [Bg. 7.28]
are the definitions. One who is completely free from all sinful
activities, they can become pure devotee. So even after becoming free
from sinful activities, if one has got some motive, then he is also not
pure devotee. Pure devotee means without any material motive: "God is
great. I am His subordinate. I must love God. I must render service to
God." This is pure devotee. And if I go to God, "Please give me my
bread," that is not pure devotee, because he has got some purpose. As
soon as his purpose is fulfilled, he may turn nondevotee. Just like one
of my German Godbrothers said that in Germany during the last war,
Second World War, many women used to go to the church to pray to God to
get back their husband, son, or brother. But nobody came back. And they
became atheist: "There is no God. We prayed so much, and my father did
not come, my brother did not come, my son did not come." So motivated
devotion is sometimes frustrated, and they become atheist. Therefore
the devotee who has no motive is pure devotee. "In any condition, it is
my duty to love God and to serve Him, not for my benefit but God's
satisfaction." That is pure devotee.
shilanam bhaktir uttama [Brahma-samhita 1.1.11]
is the definition of pure devotee. "If God satisfies me in my sense
gratification, then I love God. Otherwise I have no connection with
Him." That is not devotion; that is business. So business-type devotion
is not devotion. It is [not] devotion—
it may be accepted as a pious activity, not devotion. Devotion is
transcendental to pious and impious activity. Just like Arjuna was
thinking to fight with his cousin-brothers and kill them is impious.
But when he understood, "Krishna wants this fight," he transcended the
impious activity, and by the order of Krishna he killed his relative.
Therefore this devotion is above the position of pious and impious
activity. Therefore it is called transcendental.
Guest (4): I am not clear on
what you're saying that for someone...
Prabhupada: It is clear. If
you have got some motive and with motive you go to God, that is not
Guest (4): It is wrong to
Prabhupada: No, it is not
wrong, but it is not pure devotion.
Guest (4): I see.
Prabhupada: Some way or
other, if you go to God, that is very good. With motive or without
motive, you have come to God, that is piety. That is better than to
become impious. Impious men, they do not go to God. Just like nowadays
nobody goes to church. Church are selling. Simply... Temples also. So
now there are in India so many township development. They are
constructing very fashionable houses, but no temples. Nobody is
constructing temple. At the present moment everybody has become
disinterested with anything religion and God. All over the world. That
is degradation. Especially I am seeing in Bombay, that Juhu scheme,
very nice houses are being manufactured. You have all seen. But nobody
is constructing a temple. The modern economists, they say
"nonproductive endeavor"—means there is no income. Simply you have to
spend money for maintaining the temple. So they are not interested in
nonproductive things. So this is degradation of the human society.
Either as Christian or Hindu or Mohammedan, nobody is interested. A few
may be interested. ... [break]
Prabhupada: Try to understand
this, that life is always there, as God is there. So these living
entities, part and parcel of God, they are also there. That God has got
multi-energies, potencies. Out of that, three potencies have been taken
as very important. Parasya shaktir vividhaiva shruyate [Chaitanya-charitamrita
Madhya 13.65, purport]. God has multi-energy. Out of that, three
energies have been taken as principal: material, spiritual, and
marginal. The material energy is this material world. The spiritual
world is the spiritual energy. And we living entities, we are also
spiritual, but we are called marginal because we may live under the
subjugation of material energy or spiritual energy. So the living
entities, they are eternal. Their only position is marginal, sometimes
manifested here, sometimes manifested there. So in the material world
the living entities are already there. You haven't got to create. That
is foolishness. It is never created. Simply in the material world it
becomes manifest in four ways. Some of them are coming like trees,
plants. And some of them are coming from perspiration... not coming,
being manifested through fermentation, perception. And some of them are
being manifested through eggs. And some of them are being manifested
through embryo. The living entity were already there. Their struggle is
going on, and they become manifest in the material world in four
sources. In the spiritual world there is no such... They are eternally
existing. There is no question of manifestation. So this is the science
of living entities. What do they know? Therefore I say they are
rascals. They do not know anything, simply trying to create. What is
the creation? It is already there. But they do not know what is this,
and still, they are scientists, they are advanced education. All
rascal. They do not know. Therefore through Bhagavad-gita
we say they are rascals. Mudha [ass].
Now you tell these mudhas that "My dear sirs, you cannot
create; neither it is created. You find out how they are coming out,
what is their source, who is the brain behind all this nature. That you
find out. That is knowledge. So if you struggle for this and try to
find out the original source of everything, then some day you may come
to this platform, vasudevah sarvam iti sa mahatma su-durlabhah
[Bg. 7.19]. Then you understand that Krishna is the source of
everything, and then your knowledge will be perfect." This is the... Vasudevah
sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]. Whatever we see, that is, the source is
Vasudeva. Do you think this nice flower has come out without any brain,
this nonsense philosophy? The so-called scientist will put some
bombastic word, "this, that..." What is that explanation? Nobody can
understand. It will be understood by them only. They will put some
language in such a way that it is to be understood by them. Unless they
explain, nobody will understand. They say it is automatically being
done, nature. That's not the fact. Nature is an instrument. Just like
this wonderful machine, computer. But still, there is operator. But
they have no common sense even, that where is the machine that is
working without any operator? Where is that machine within their
experience? How they suggest that the nature is doing automatically?
Nature is wonderful machine, but the operator is Krishna. That is real
knowledge. Because the machine is working wonderfully, there is no
operator? Where is that experience? Have you got any experience, Dr.
Wolf, like that?
Dr. Wolf: No, sir, I don't.
Prabhupada: Oh, we have got
any experience? You have got any experience? Then, why do you say
nonsense, this? You have no experience, and you say something nonsense,
ludicrous. They say "nature." What is the nature? Nature is a machine
only. Just like the harmonium. It is also machine. But if one expert
operator is there, it makes very melodious, oh, nice. So will the
harmonium play automatically? And bring melodious sound? So they have
no common sense even; still, they are scientist. That is our regret.
They are less than common sense man. That you have to expose, that
these people have not even common sense, and they are passing on as
scientist. That you must protest because you are servant of God, you
are servant of the scientist. Call them directly rascal. Let them
defend that they are not rascal. He brought some scientist. I called
him, "You are rascal, you are demon. You are everything," [laughs] and
he tolerated. That means internally he accepted that he is a rascal.
[laughs] Actually they... They have no common sense even. So we are not
scientist, but we speak from common sense. That's all. Yesterday or day
before yesterday, I was talking on common sense on law points, so
Rupanuga said that "You are bigger than lawyer." I do not know that I
am bigger than lawyer, but I was speaking on common sense. The
difficulty is they are misleading. So many people are being misled by
the so-called politician and scientist and... But Gandhi says... He has
written so many nonsense things. One thing is that he said, "I do not
believe that there was anybody as Krishna living ever. Krishna is of my
imagination." These things he has written. And he is Mahatma Gandhi. Mahatma's
definition is there in the Bhagavad-
gita, mahatmanas tu mam partha daivim prakritim ashritah
[Bg. 9.13]. Mahatma means devotee, who have understood vasudevah
sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]. But these rascal politicians, they have
become mahatma. For politics, they can do anything, lie like
anybody, and so many things. There was a big writer in Bengal. So he is
giving evidence in the court... That's a comic. So he says, "Do you
think I am editor? I am pleader? I am prostitute?" Means indirectly he
is saying that they are prostitutes. As the prostitute can say
anything, lies, for their profession, similarly, these people, the
editor and the..., pleaders, they are like that. "Do you think I am
prostitute? Do you think I am lawyer? Do you think I am editor,
newspaper editor?" So take this formula from the shastras [Vedic literatures] that a living entity is
never created. These rascals are trying to create living entity and
spending money and going to hold big, big conference. So where is the
question of creation? They are already created. Why this common sense
do not come in their brain? Why?
Svarup Damodara: Because they
Prabhupada: Oh, illusioned,
Prabhupada: Yes. Mayayapahrita-jnana.
That is stated in the
Bhagavad-gita. They are so-called educated, doctors, but
actually they have no knowledge. Simply they are bluffing, cheating.
Where is the question of creation? So many millions and trillions of
living entities are there, and they are making conference, "How to
create from chemicals?" Just see this childish proposal. And wasting
time and misleading person, and wasting hard-earned money of the state.
And big, big foundation supplying them money. And if you ask, "Give us
some money for Krishna consciousness," "No, no, we are not interested
in religion. We are interested in science, and this is the science."
All fools and rascal, mudha. That is our test. Anyone who is
not Krishna conscious, he is a mudha. Bas [enough said]. We have got the test tube, this Bhagavad-gita,
na mam dushkritino mudhah prapadyante naradhamah
[Bg. 7.15]. So as soon as we see here is a man, if he has not
surrendered to Krishna, "All right, you are mudha." That's all.
We haven't got to test him. Test tube is already there. So you tell
these mudhas that "Why you are wasting so much time and money
to find out how to manufacture life? Then what are these life? How they
have come? That is not a problem, that without your creation of life
the world will go to hell. It is already there." What do they say? "Why
they are trying to create life?" What is their answer? What they will
get it? The things are already there. Suppose there are so many
motorcars, and if I manufacture one motorcar, so is there any great
credit for me? The motorcars are already there. When there was no car,
motorcar, the first man who manufactured, he had some credit. Who
manufactured? The Daimler or somebody else? So he had some credit,
"Yes, you have done something, horseless carriage. People will get
something convenience. That's all right." But when there are thousands
and millions of motorcars and creating accident only, and still, if I
manufacture motorcar, what is my credit? What is my credit?
Svarup Damodara: Zero.
Prabhupada: Zero. And they
are going to put this zero, and they are going to have some big
conference. So many people will come and spend money unnecessarily.
Madhava: They want to make a
better human being by making life themselves. They want to make it
Prabhupada: Yes, that is our
proposal, that don't waste time. You are living entities. There are so
many living entities. Now try to understand what is your actual
constitutional position so that you may become happy and peaceful. This
research should be done. Why they are going to waste time in this way,
money and time? You can write to the organizer, sponsor of this
meeting, that "Why you are foolishly going to waste time like that?"
You can say, at least, "My Guru Maharaja says like this."
Dr. Wolf: Srila Prabhupada, I
think if they're trying to create life they want to claim authorship.
They want to say, "We did it," but they do not understand that they
Prabhupada: What do they want
to claim by creating life?
Dr. Wolf: Authorship.
Originators. They want to be...
Prabhupada: Origin is already
there. How you can be originator? Already life is there. How you can be
originator? That is your foolishness.
Rupanuga: They're simply
trying to disprove Krishna. "If I can do this," they're saying, "if I
can create life, then there's no need to postulate a God. I can be God."
Prabhupada: That means demon.
Rupanuga: Yes, they want to
Prabhupada: So how we can
respect the demons? We cannot.
Rupanuga: No. We'll not give
them any credit.
Prabhupada: The other fools,
they can give some respect, but we are not going to do that. We say,
"You will never be able." You can say. This rascal, we can give some
knowledge, that "Your this attempt will be failure," because we know
life cannot be created. How he will create? We know the formula, na
jayate. So how this rascal will be able to create? I am not a
scientist, but on the strength of Bhagavad-gita's
assertion, na jayate na mriyate. "Neither it is created;
neither it dies." So if somebody wants to create, then at once we shall
call him a fool. We have got test tube. Very boldly we shall say. Now
let them prove that can he create. This is our position. So Krishna
conscious person, he has got very strong position. He speaks just what
Krishna speaks. That's all, finished.
Rupanuga: They're like you
described yesterday, when the scorpion comes from the rice. They think
that when some living entity becomes manifest that he's being created.
That's because the material...
Prabhupada: That also he
Prabhupada: How the scorpion
is coming out of rice, that they do not know. Such a foolish person, he
Rupanuga: They're thinking
because they are able by different methods like synthetics and through
chemistry that they can produce...
Prabhupada: That is
craftsmanship. That is not knowledge.
Rupanuga: But still, they are
thinking because they can do, make the background a little...
Prabhupada: Just like if you
paint a picture, rose, you are a painter, not that you know the
knowledge. A painter is not a man of knowledge. Man of knowledge means
he knows how things are being done. That is man of knowledge. Painter
imitates some painting, that's all. He may be a good painter, but a
painter is never taken as man of knowledge. I think, therefore, two
departments, art and science. So this knowledge, this technical
knowledge... Suppose one man has created an aeroplane. That is an art;
that is not knowledge.
Rupanuga: So if they create
some synthetic, that is an art.
Prabhupada: That is an art.
Rupanuga: Simply copying what
Prabhupada: Just like a good
cook is a good chemist. He knows how to mix up the masalas and
ghee and makes very tasteful thing. So you can call him a good cook.
The chemistry is nothing but mixture of different chemicals. That's
all. There is oil. There is alkaline. You mix it very proportionately,
and soap comes out, very useful.
Madhava: Prabhupada, how can
we explain to the scientists how gross matter is being produced from
subtle matter and ultimately from life, from consciousness. Like if a
scientist were looking at the creation occurring...
Prabhupada: Every scientist
knows that originally the sky, the sound, and from the sound, then,
what is? Air? What is the process of creation from subtle to gross?
Rupanuga: First the ether
Prabhupada: Yes. From sound
there is air, from air there is fire; from fire there is water; from
water there is earth. This is earth, water, air, fire. And the sound,
transcendental sound... As it is said in the Bible, "Let there be
creation." And in the Vedas also, it is said, sa aikshata: "He
glanced over." That is to be found out, how from sound, from ether,
sound is coming... I think that is already in the science. Is it not?
Svarup Damodara: It's not
known, natural sciences.
Madhava: You gave one example
Madhava: You gave one example
of television as showing that gross form comes from the ether. The
transmission of television...
Prabhupada: But that now,
this television, yes, coming. Sound is coming, some ethereal vibration
and so many things. That you have to see. But in the Vedic knowledge is
Svarup Damodara: The question
that Mädhava was raising that came up in the questions that all
the forms of these living entities which... All the species, their
forms, their gross forms...
Prabhupada: That is coming
Svarup Damodara: Yes, whether
that has come all of a sudden.
Prabhupada: No all of a
Svarup Damodara: Or is it by
gradual evolution from...
Prabhupada: Yes. Sada
tad-bhava-bhavitah [Bg. 8.6]. As you are thinking always, so you
are creating your next body.
Svarup Damodara: That still
is not the answer. What we want is, at the time of creation of the
material world, when all the species, 8,400,000 species...
Svarup Damodara: They are all
simultaneously manifested, just at once?
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. But
they are not manifested yet. Because it was like sleeping. When there
is no creation and..., there is sleeping stage. Just like in the
sleeping stage, even at the present moment, at night, the dog is
sleeping, the bird is sleeping, the man is sleeping, the tiger is...
Everyone is sleeping at night. But in the morning, as soon as they
awake, they understand, "I am tiger," "I am dog," "I am man," "I am
this," "I am that." Everyone remembers that "I have to do this. I have
to do that. I have to go there. I have to bring money from there." All
duties come immediately. So all these living creatures who are sleeping
at night, but when there is morning, they again become the same. That
Rupanuga: But when Brahma
creates, does he first of all create the aquatics, then the plants?
Rupanuga: No, everything is
at once. There's no gradual, it is all immediate.
Prabhupada: There is a
process, from aquatics to this, this, this, this, but when there is
creation, all of them come at once.
Rupanuga: So that process is
transmigration of the soul.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
Rupanuga: That is evolution.
Prabhupada: So in the last
creation, if somebody could not come to the human form of body, now
again he will be able to come. Therefore the creation is there. Another
chance is given.
Rupanuga: Yes. Otherwise
there would be no chance.
Dr. Wolf: Srila Prabhupada,
there is the idea that matter comes from life.
Prabhupada: Life, yes.
Dr. Wolf: I do not quite see
how. I do not quite understand how matter can come from life.
Prabhupada: Just like a man,
a mechanic, was sleeping, and as soon as he awakes, he again begins to
manufacture motorcar. In the sleeping stage he was doing nothing. But
awakened state, he begins his work. So therefore he is living being,
and the motorcar comes from him, not that the motorcar was sleeping. He
was sleeping, the living entity.
Dr. Wolf: Can one assume that
matter is a kind of energy?
Prabhupada: Yes, matter is
also energy of God.
Dr. Wolf: But which of the
three types of energy does matter come from?
Prabhupada: Matter, material.
Dr. Wolf: The material energy.
Prabhupada: Yes. In the
material world there is question of matter and spirit. In the spiritual
world simply everything is spiritual.
Dr. Wolf: Can we assume that
energy itself, all three types of energy, are related to life?
Dr. Wolf: They emanate from
Prabhupada: From Krishna.
Krishna says, aham sarvasya prabhavah. Find out this
verse. Aham sarvasya. Sarvasya means both matter
mattah sarvam pravartate
iti matva bhajante mam
budha bhava-samanvitah [Bg. 10.8]
Satsvarupa: [reads translation:] "The wise
who know this perfectly engage in My devotional service and worship Me
with all their hearts."
Prabhupada: That's it. He has
found out the original source. There is no conference needed.
Rupanuga: This other
question. During the day of Brahma at the end of every Manu there's a
partial devastation of the planets up to earth and celestial, right?
Now, at that time there's like a flood, and the animals that are in
their particular stage of transmigration of the living entities, their
bodies are all killed. Now, at that time, when the end of that period
is over, how are the bodies manifest? This is a question Richard Prabhu
Prabhupada: There is no body.
They are reserved in the Vishnu's body. And again, when there is
creation, they come out. And therefore matter comes from the spirit.
Matter is there, creation, matter. So take advantage of the matter.
Just like the cloth is there. You cut it according [to] your body, and
there is a coat. The spiritual body is already there. Now the matter is
there. Now, from matter, you take. You make your body like a dog, like
an ant, like a fish, like a tree, like this.
Rupanuga: So all the
different species are created again simultaneously.
Prabhupada: That is... He
died with that mentality. It is there. Just like we go to sleep, but
all your mental activities are reserved. In the morning again you begin.
Madhava: Prabhupada, you say
that the living entity, he is thinking about a particular kind of body
and a particular activity...
Prabhupada: Not particular
body—particular desire. And according to the desire, Krishna is giving
him facility through the material machine to give him a particular type
of body. Just like one man is thinking of eating anything nonsense. So
Krishna says that "You give him this body of hog. He can eat even
stool." That's all. You want to be naked, nudie? So Krishna gives him,
"So he is very much anxious to become nudie. Make him a tree. Stand up
for five thousand years naked." This is going on.
Madhava: If I desire...
Prabhupada: Whatever you
Madhava: If I desire
something to appear here now...
Prabhupada: Yes, you will
remain here as insect.
Madhava: No, if I desire a
plate of prasadam [food offered to
Krishna] to appear here...
Prabhupada: Then you will go
to Vaikuntha. [laughter]
Madhava: How do I do it by
just desiring? How is it done?
Prabhupada: By desire you are
creating everything. Why these material varieties? You desire. In the
spiritual world also, varieties. You desire. You want to serve Krishna
as His friend, you want to serve Krishna as His lover, you want to
serve Krishna as His father, as His servant, or you want to serve
Krishna by supplying fruits and flowers, or river Yamuna. Everything,
whatever you like, Krishna will give you opportunity, in this material
and the spiritual world.
Svarup Damodara: After
complete annihilation and then, when the creation starts again...
Prabhupada: There is no
question of annihilation.
Svarup Damodara: I mean the
Prabhupada: Yes, it is
manifest, not manifest. Not annihilation. The energy is there. Just
like sometimes I become angry, and sometime I am peaceful. But that
means anger is annihilated. Anger is there. It may be manifest at any
time. There is no question of annihilation. You say like that because
actually it is vyakta, avyakta: manifest and nonmanifest.
Rupanuga: We don't see it, so
we say it's not manifest.
Svarup Damodara: So during
this time there are still living entities which are not manifested.
Prabhupada: Living are
already there, but his desires are manifest or nonmanifest.
Svarup Damodara: Yes, the
living entities are there, but they stop manifesting the different
Prabhupada: That is another
thing, that you cannot see him without body. That is your defect. There
are so many living entities in the air. You cannot see them. That is
your defect. Therefore, Vedanta-shastra-chakshusha: "You
should see through the shastra, not with your so-called eyes."
Prabhupada: Yes. Knowledge is
through shastra, authority, not by our senses. That is not
Svarup Damodara: So that
explains the... Sometimes some scientists ask that "You are very sure,
so sure about the 8,400,000 species."
Svarup Damodara: They ask,
"How are you so much sure about 8,400,000 species?"
Prabhupada: Because we have
heard from authority. As you are asking assurance from me, so I give
you the knowledge from where I have heard. You want to hear from me. I
have heard from authority. That's all. What is the difficulty? Why you
are asking me? You want to hear from me. So I have also heard from
authority. This is the statement. You take it.
Svarup Damodara: So when...
They say that there are some plants that can grow from just branches...
We stick the branch in the soil. Then it just grows to another plant.
Prabhupada: The same thing.
The living entity is there, but he is manifested in such a way. The
same explanation. Just like there are many living entities within my
body, and when this body is stopped, decomposed, they come out in
Svarup Damodara: Are these
living entities constant? They don't change any.
Prabhupada: Yes, nitya,
nitya. Nityah shashvato 'yam na hanyate hanyamane sharire
[Bg. 2.20]. Why don't you see these references? It is never created. It
is ever-existing, eternal. Only it appears to be temporary on account
of accepting different material bodies. Therefore, panditah
sama-darshinah [Bg. 5.18]. One who knows, he knows that he has
changed his body, the same person. Just like father, mother knows. When
a son becomes very stout and strong, the mother sees that same child.
Others may be bewildered. One who has seen the child very long ago, now
he has become robust build. He cannot say. And the mother says, "He is
my child, that child." So
panditah sama-darshinah [Bg. 5.18].
translation:] "For the soul there is never birth nor death, nor, having
once been, does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal,
ever-existing, undying and primeval. He is not slain when the body is
Prabhupada: That's all. So
where is the question of creation? But because we have got these
material eyes, we want to see everything through this material
manifestation. We are seeing that he is dead, he is alive, he is born,
he is this, that...
Svarup Damodara: But that is
the defect of the scientists. They only see the body.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is
their defect. Therefore asses, go-kharah. That is defined.
Anyone who takes the body as the self, he is a go-kharah,
animal. And that is our protest, that "You are animal; you are passing
as very learned scholar, scientist." That we want to protest. We want
to expose them, that they are cheating people. They have no perfect
knowledge; still, they are passing as scientist and big men and... That
is our protest.
Madhava: Can we say that the
living entity is there, and that he is the one that makes the molecules
and the atoms come together to form a body just like the scientists
give explanation? No? We can't?
Prabhupada: No. Because the
living entity is there for the formation of his body, so many things
are going on, action and reaction of the matter. That's all. That is
depending on his desires. It is so subtle thing. He is desiring, and
action, reaction is going on. And as soon as the living entity is not
there, these action and reaction will stop. So they are trying to find
out the missing thing. That missing thing is the living entity. That
they do not know, foolishly. Just like a motorcar is running very
nicely, and as soon as the driver goes away it stops. The machine is
there, the everything is there, but this rascal mechanic, he comes,
"Something is missing." And why something missing? But he does not know
the missing part is the driver. He is finding out in the motorcar what
is missing. The motorcar, everything is there. The hand is there, leg
is there, heart is there, the intestines are there, everything is
there. So they cannot explain. They say, "Now the blood has become
white." Then make it red. Where is the difficulty? So they do not know
what is missing; neither he'll take, I mean to say, learned
instruction. That is their defect. Real thing is the driver is missing,
but that they will not accept. They are so foolish, they are thinking
that motorcar is running automatically.
Rupanuga: Like a child.
Prabhupada: Like a child,
yes. As the child will say, "Oh, motorcar is going on."
Sadaputa: Srila Prabhupada,
would it be possible for them to make a body and have a living entity
enter into it?
Prabhupada: Yes, there is
yogic principle. They can enter into a young body and act as young man.
Sadaputa: So a scientist then
could claim he created life. He could... The way they talk, if he made
Prabhupada: First of all let
them, these foolish rascals, let them understand what is the point who
is missing. Then they will replace. They have no knowledge what is
missing. They are so fool.
Dr. Wolf: Srila Prabhupada,
they would not create. They would only imitate.
Prabhupada: That is not... It
is never created. That is their missing point, that life is never
created and they are trying to create.
Madhava: Their theory may be
right about how the body forms, but they're missing the soul?
Prabhupada: Body forms... As
soon as there is life, body will form by nature's arrangement.
Madhava: May their theory be
right? Like they say they come from amino acids and so many things.
Prabhupada: That may be or
may not be. Who cares for them? It is being already done.
Rupanuga: They're simply
Prabhupada: That is also...
Because they have no knowledge, how they can describe?
Svarup Damodara: We're
explaining that, just like Srila Prabhupada's example that the driver
in the car. So inside the... We also say that "Yes, molecules are the
ingredients to build the material bodies. But this does not mean that
molecules are the living entities."
Prabhupada: That's it.
Svarup Damodara: There is a
Prabhupada: Yes. That is the
first instruction of Krishna. Dehino 'smin yatha dehe kaumara...
[Bg. 2.13]. Dehinah. There is a living entity, driver, within
this body. That is the first instruction. Unless one understands this
simple thing, he is an ass. There is no knowledge. Because everything
is based on something fictitious. This is the first thing one has to
learn, the scientists, that there is the driver which is missing. Or
the driver is moving this body. And if the driver is educated, then he
can move this body to Krishna, back to home, back to Godhead. Then he
becomes perfect. So we are educating the driver. We are not painting
the tin car. This is Krishna consciousness movement.
Madhava: Does the scientist
actually observe something external to his mind or does he only
Madhava: Only in his mind.
Prabhupada: That's all. Just
like you cannot see actually what is beyond the wall, and there is some
sound. You can simply speculate, "This sound is due to this. This sound
is due to this. This sound is due to this," but you have no clear
knowledge. This is called speculation.