Svarupa Damodar: Yes, I said,
"We are coming in September," so he's... We'll be giving lectures
there. And the Atishah(?) personally told me that he never thought
these ideas before. He said this is the first time that he's seeing
such things, that science can be utilized in understanding the nature
of the self or life from
Bhagavad-gita. Then I also went to Bose Institute. I wanted to
talk with the director.
Prabhupada: Oh, Bose
Svarupa Damodar: The director
wasn't there, but there was very leading professor. His name was
Amrtabal Singh. He's the..., just next to the...
Prabhupada: Woman? Woman?
Svarupa Damodar: No, no,
Amrtabal Singh is the name. And he told me he didn't have time to talk
with me because, he said, he had a meeting. So I told him that I just
came to see the director, but since the director is not there I just
want to let him know that "We want to hold a conference on life
sciences and Krishna consciousness, so if you are interested, I'd like
to invite you because you're a leading scientist. And the Bose
Institute is quite well known. So I'd like you to participate in our
conference." Then he asked me, "What is that conference?" Then I
started describing about the way modern science is going at this time.
"Science says that everything is molecules. So what do you think as a
scientist? Now, the way we communicate... I talk with you, and you talk
to me, but the way we communicate, science say that these are just
chemical reactions. You talk because of some chemical reactions. And so
what do you think about this modern philosophy?" Then I started talking
about the very unsatisfactory explanations of these ideas according to
modern science and trying to introduce concept of Bhagavad-gita,
that "Life is nonchemical and nonphysical. It is spiritual. When we
study physics, chemistry and mathematics, we simply study matter, but
actually we don't really study life. But modern science says that life
is nothing but chemicals. So we are determined to show to the people,
especially to the leading scientists, that the knowledge that we have
is all wrong. There must be something beyond that we just know so far."
Then he started taking great interest, and I talked with him for a
little more than an hour. He... And even he was thinking of postponing
that... He had a meeting, and he telephoned. He said... He said he
started discussing with me, and the talk became so interesting that he
postponed the meeting. He even said. [laughs] So he was very nice,
actually. He said that he agrees that in the Western..., especially in
the United States, the leading scientists are taking too much for
granted. They're saying too much, very unscientific, saying that life
started from molecules. He said it's all unknown. These are all
stories. So he said that it's a little too much. Science doesn't know
these things. He agreed to that point very clearly. I said, "Do you
think scientists like...? It is your responsibility, especially from
this land, to show that the concept..."
Prabhupada: We know.
Svarupa Damodar: Yes. And he
actually was very interested, and he told me to write about Mandeha(?),
the director, so that they can make arrangements and so we can speak.
So I just had few hours, and I wanted to go to the Indian school for
experimental medicine that is in Jadavpur. I know the director. The
director is from Calcutta University, and I just about to see him, but
I couldn't see him. I didn't have the time. But we have, I think,
plenty of scope, doing these things on a wider scale.
Svarupa Damodar: And I also
published this little concept about what these, all these lectures is
about. So it says, "Announcing a worldwide lecture tour on the origin
of life and matter, sponsored by Bhaktivedanta Institute for Higher
Studies, Founder-Acharya His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
Prabhupada." And then I give a whole series from here to here, and I
also give the topics and...
Prabhupada: Very nice.
Svarupa Damodar: So like to
hear a little bit?
Prabhupada: Yes. [Svarupa
Damodara reads pamphlet announcing worldwide lecture tour of
Bhaktivedanta Institute] All glories to Svarupa Damodara.
Svarupa Damodar: All glories
to Srila Prabhupada. And I already got some very positive remarks,
especially in Manipur. They invited us... There is a center called
Bhaktambabu(?) Research Center in Manipur, so they invited for a
speaking engagement. They wanted in printed form so that they also
publish. There is a Jawaharlal University in Manipur, and there is also
low college. In several college they already invited.
Prabhupada: So the Bose
Institute of Research, they have invited you?
Svarupa Damodar: Oh, yes.
Prabhupada: Did you not
Svarupa Damodar: Oh... Yeah,
I haven't mentioned it yet.
Tamal Krsna: Did this article
come out after?
Svarupa Damodar: Yeah, this
article came after. I could have mentioned, but it was just for general
Prabhupada: So let them issue
later on, and you can make.
Svarupa Damodar: Sometime we
are preparing, called, a brochure for this lecture series. We'll make
it color. So I already have the outline in Boston. So we're titling,
"Announcing a Worldwide Lecture Series on the Origin of Life in the
Matter, sponsored by Bhaktivedanta Institute for Higher Studies and
Founder-Acharya His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada."
And we have some colored pictures inside and a little also, synopsis of
the theme, the topics. We said, "Chemical Evolution-A Molecular Fairy
Tale," and we have about three or four lines describing what the
lecture should be about and what is the main theme of the talk. And we
also have photographs of four or five of us who are going to speak and
a little background of the candidate. So we wanted to make it very
Svarupa Damodar: And also
making it nice-looking.
Prabhupada: And print very
Svarupa Damodar: Yes. So that
will be useful for making engagements. That we will do before we come
here. And it's already outlined.
Prabhupada: Very nice. So
money is ready there?
Tamal Krsna: Yes, money is
ready there. Svarupa Damodara hasn't heard yet about Ambarisa's offer.
Svarupa Damodar: I haven't
heard about this?
Prabhupada: For starting our
Svarupa Damodar: In
Svarupa Damodar: So Ambarisa
Prabhupada: He is prepared to
pay us about two hundred...
Tamal Krsna: Thousand(?).
Svarupa Damodar: Jaya. That's
wonderful. In Washington it will be very nice, the center of the world.
Svarupa Damodar: So we'll all
save our Bhaktivedanta...
Prabhupada: Three? Three
Tamal Krsna: He said... He
has thirty million dollars.
Svarupa Damodar: I think that
will be very attractive, and it will open up wide cultural aspects of
Krishna consciousness. And we will also have our institute in
Prabhupada: Yes. So there is
money, there is intelligence and... That's all. I can give you one...
[indistinct] You have taken your lunch now?
Svarupa Damodar: Yes, we'll
You look better, Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: [break] Do you
think that the..., if the scientists attend meeting, they are
interested? Or they feeling dry?
Svarupa Damodar: I think they
are very interested, very much. Otherwise they won't take time to
discuss. In fact, some of them feel that it's very unique.
Prabhupada: Unique it is.
There was no such proposal before. They have taken God as something
mystic, imagination. Especially this rascal Darwin's theory, "People
are animals," and they accept that "We are animals. My father was
monkey." Very easy. This rascal has convinced them that "Your father,
grandfather, were monkeys, and you are Sir Walton Rose(?)." "How I
became a Sir Walton Rose, the son of a monkey?" This is their business.
How much bluff. Disgusted learning and jump. A monkey has become man.
Svarupa Damodar: That is just
Svarupa Damodar: That is
Prabhupada: Full nonsense,
this rascal. How much havoc he has done to the human society. A grand
rascal, this Darwin. And he is taken as the basic principle of
anthropology. The whole world has become... So all scientists, by
combined meeting, they should kick out his Darwin theory. All, they
should modify... [pause] Long, long ago, before, things were there.
Nobody knows how long. In the Padma Purana it is said, bhramyadbhir
jatishu. You know this word?
Svarupa Damodar: Yes.
There are different forms of bodies of jiva. That is also
stated. Jalaja nava-lakshani sthavara laksha-vimshati. So
first of all, general, from water. That you have got experience. Fish
is coming. As soon as there is some reservoir of water, after some day
mosquito will come, fish will come, many other bugs and germs will
come, jalaja. And their number is also given, nava-lakshani.
In this way, bhramyadbhir jiva-jati, the soul, the living
entity, is wandering, jiva-jatishu. Then he gets a human form
of life. The civilization is there. And five thousand years ago Krishna
said, tatha dehantara-
praptih [Bhagavad-gita 2.13]. So what this nonsense
Darwin will tell us? Rascals. We have already information—jiva-jati,
they are already existing, one after another. [break] "...missing,
fossil." What is this nonsense? What is missing? The monkeys, they,
your father, is there, monkey. Where is monkey is missing? Your father,
grandfather is there. So why you have got this body of all a sudden?
Enjoy. You have to accept. You are changing body from monkey to man. So
these so-called scientists, they are hovering for some false
understanding. Now they should come to welcome this point and accept
that living entity is completely different from these eight elements,
physical or chemical or mental. This should be propagated. Then they
will understand what about this spiritual... Actually the spirit soul
is the basis of all activities. Jiva-bhutam maha-baho yayedam
dharyate... [Bg. 7.5]. Actually, because the living entity is
there, all activities are going on. Who else would have taken care of
this garden unless there was a living entity? Not that all of a sudden
the bricks have developed to become a fountain. What is this nonsense?
Such a rascal scientific theory?
Tamal Krsna: Chance.
Prabhupada: Chance? Chance is
Svarupa Damodar: So we are
proving that all their theories are wrong.
Svarupa Damodar: One by one.
Prabhupada: Yes, do that. Why
one should be kept in darkness in the name of science? This is our
proposal. Jnana-khale. Sarasvati-jnana-khale yad asati.
Jnana-khala. We have got this knowledge. Why should we
suppress this knowledge? We must distribute. These rascals will keep
the whole human society in suppressed knowledge.
Tamal Krsna: For money.
Prabhupada: Yes. Cheating.
Svarupa Damodar: I saw a
newsletter issued by the International Society for the Study of the
Origin of Life from Chemicals. They just had an international meeting
in Japan this April, and I am a member, so they send me a newsletter,
national newsletter. They have interesting schemes. The next meeting is
in 1981 in Israel. I was actually thinking of presenting a paper in the
last meeting, but time was little short for us. So we are thinking of
presenting papers in that international meeting. It is a whole
scientific community all over. So I thought it will be very interesting
to present our viewpoint and make it very strong. We are very small in
number, but our thoughts will be very challenging to all of them,
especially mathematics and physical chemistry together. They also have
a journal, the Journal of the Origin of Life, and there the write only
about chemicals. Everything is just like a story. So we make it a fairy
tale, the molecular fairy tale, and it's very appropriate. All are
Prabhupada: They invented
stories for going to the moon planet.
Svarupa Damodar: Yeah,
they're making stories about everything.
Prabhupada: A small toy
sputnik, background, a big picture, and photograph.
Tamal Krsna: Did you see that
article, "Moon Hoax?"
Svarupa Damodar: Our Back
Tamal Krsna: No, there's an
article that was published in a paper in America called "Moon Hoax."
Svarupa Damodar: No, I didn't
Tamal Krsna: I'll show you
Svarupa Damodar: In Time
Tamal Krsna: No, in a weekly
newspaper from Pennsylvania.
Prabhupada: No, there are
companies. They came to us. Your theory they'll present in a scientific
way, so-called scientific way.
Tamal Krsna: Oh, yes, company.
Prabhupada: They have got all
toys and take photograph.
Svarupa Damodar: I am also
feeling that in the last, about five years ago, scientists, though they
were very arrogant about ten years ago, seems a feeling that they may
be little bit on the humble side. They are not as arrogant as they used
to be, say, ten years ago. We couldn't talk these things in the West,
but now, since they promised all these things, and up till now,
actually, we have all those things that they promised about ten years
ago. Now nothing's happening. So they're making a second thought, that
maybe whatever they thought, it's all wrong, so...
Prabhupada: It is wrong.
Svarupa Damodar: It's very
timely that we present our philosophy and science just in the right
Prabhupada: Now they will
Tamal Krsna: This movement is
very dangerous. They'll see. First they though it was simply some
people clapping cymbals. Now they're beginning to feel the weight,
these scientists especially.
Prabhupada: Just like
Trinavarta. He took away Krishna as a small child. When he was up, He
became as heavy as the mountain, and then he could not go up. Then he
wanted to smash the child and throw it, but the child wrapped the neck
of Trinavarta in such a way, he could not. The result was that he fell
down and died. And the child was saved.
Tamal Krsna: So in the same
way Western civilization will fall down and die, and we will go on
Svarupa Damodar: If we get
some very leading scientists in the world on our side, at least few,
let's say about three, that's enough.
Prabhupada: So that I am
asking to enroll as members of the Bhaktivedanta Institute.
Svarupa Damodar: That must
have come from the United States.
Prabhupada: Yes. We have got
enough material to convince. We are not blind.
Tamal Krsna: Why do they have
to come in the United States?
Svarupa Damodar: Well, people
nowadays expect, if anything comes from the States, that's a fact. So
sometime all the leading scientists of the world are in the States.
Even if they are coming from other countries, they all get together in
the States. Everybody goes there. So something is coming from the
States, it is formally respected by all the big men all over the world.
So that is why I want to attack United States as my last, bringing men
from all over. Then we can make a strong presentation in the States.
Prabhupada: And actually it
so happened. Who would have joined unless I would have gone from United
States? Useless. Their money, their men, they are helping. That's a
fact. And that was my aim.
Tamal Krsna: You tried here
Prabhupada: And they are
useless here, waste of time. Neither I wanted to go to London. "New
York I shall go."
Tamal Krsna: Anyone else
would have gone to London.
Prabhupada: Yes, to go to the
Western countries means to go to England. I didn't like that. I
thought, "I shall go to New York."
Tamal Krsna: Very modern
Prabhupada: Yes. Krishna has
Svarupa Damodar: Everybody's
attracted to go to the States nowadays. Even I was attracted. When I
had a choice to go any place in the world 'cause I got a scholarship
from Indian government, a Western scholarship. I could study in any
part of the world, and I could choose any school I liked. And I told
the interview board in Delhi... There was a man from England at that
time. I told him that "I don't want to go to England." [Prabhupada
laughs] So he was little offended.
Svarupa Damodar: Nowadays all
students, scholars, going outside means going to the States. That is
Prabhupada: They give
facility. No, I have got good respect for America.
Svarupa Damodar: Yes, I'm
sure that the scientists, some of the leading scientists, will accept.
Prabhupada: I therefore say
America is my fatherland. India is my motherland.
Svarupa Damodar: Yes, in the
normal dealing also...
Svarupa Damodar: ...the
Americans are very friendly, very nice actually, in general. When I
studied in California, I was a stranger, but everybody looked like a
friend, very different from England. England is very conservative. They
don't say hello, and different.
Prabhupada: England, nonsense
number one. Worst false prestige, England. In that respect, other
countries are better. They had a British Empire. They are still puffed
up. And they will stay there to continue British Empire. Now they are
earning money for eating, showing British Parliament House. Now there
is no business.
Tamal Krsna: They make money
by tour of the Parliament House.
nation." The Parliament has become a shop. Artificially they're
maintaining an atmosphere of aristocracy. There is not... I talked with
some of their Lords. Artificial. The have lost all prestige. Still, "I
belong to the Lords' House." The priestly order, the Lord family, I
talked with them. Simply artificial.
Tamal Krsna: Actually you
gave it up as useless. To talk with those priestly orders, I remember,
you concluded, "This is a waste of time." They're not at all priestly.
Prabhupada: They have no
intelligence. Anyway, do something.
Svarupa Damodar: I want to
clarify a point. The other day I was discussing with this Professor
Prabhupada: Professor Kundu
is a famous man, I think.
Svarupa Damodar: Oh, yes,
he's the director. He works on the nature of consciousness. He has
great interest in Bhagavad-gita.
Prabhupada: Was he in
Scottish Churches College?
Svarupa Damodar: I never know
Prabhupada: I think in our
student there was some Kundu. The same?
Svarupa Damodar: He looks
like in his sixties.
Prabhupada: Oh, then... May
or may not. It doesn't matter.
Svarupa Damodar: We were
discussing about life, and he was talking about the idea that Krishna
is within the atom.
Prabhupada: Atom is matter.
And within atom there is God. That is God.
Svarupa Damodar: But the
Prabhupada: They have not
fully analyzed within the atom.
Svarupa Damodar: So the point
was that there is life within the atom. But that life is not... The
consciousness is not developing to the extent that...
Prabhupada: That is very
natural. Just like in a child there is life. But it is not...
Consciousness is not developed. That does not mean there is no life.
That you can see, daily affair. The same child, when he's grown up or
changed body, his activities will change. So where is the difference?
Difference—when he was a childish body, the consciousness was not
developed, and when he's transferred in another body, his consciousness
will develop. This is the point. The ant, there is life.
Svarupa Damodar: There's life
in any material...
Svarupa Damodar: But we
wanted to avoid that...
Prabhupada: In the physical
combination of atoms is combination of life also.
Svarupa Damodar: In order to
make a distinction between that life and the matter, especially to the
material scientific community, we were thinking of presenting in the
manner that matter, though in the spiritual sense there is nothing like
matter, but still, there is matter...
Prabhupada: No, there is
no... Matter means matter develops on spirit. Without spirit there is
no existence of matter. Just like spirit means consciousness. You see
in this finger. Here is consciousness, and little after, there is no
consciousness, this nail. But the nail has grown from the skin. So
therefore, from consciousness, unconsciousness... Not that from
Tamal Krsna: Very good
means absence of consciousness.
Unconsciousness also means no life?
Prabhupada: Yes. Originally
conscious. When there is forgetfulness, that is not. So unconsciousness
is a covering of life. You develop this argument. There is no such
thing as unconsciousness, but when the consciousness is covered, that
is unconsciousness, negation.
Svarupa Damodar: That becomes
Prabhupada: Yes. That we say,
"matter." Absence of consciousness is matter, jada.
Satadhanya: We say "covered
Bhakti Caru: But, Srila
Prabhupada, the body is matter, but still it is conscious as long as I
am alive. So that means the life is consciousness?
Svarupa Damodar: So the
distinction that we are making is still proper, that matter is the
inferior part of that Absolute Truth, and life is the superior part,
and without being manipulated...
Prabhupada: Superior feature.
Svarupa Damodar: Yes. But
both are spirit in a sense.
Prabhupada: Everything is
spirit. Sarvam khalv idam brahma. Therefore I say there
is no matter. Only matter means when the spirit is not discovered. When
people are rascals, then there is matter. When people are intelligent,
there is no matter. Sarvam khalv idam brahma. Therefore
Mayavadi philosophy, that "You are thinking you are not God," that is maya.
Tamal Krsna: Like a kirtana
party [a party of devotees singing the holy names] now, Srila
Prabhupada: This is kirtana,
going on. You do not understand what is
kirtana. Any topics on Krishna, that is kirtana. Abhavad
vaiyasaki kirtane. Vaiyasaki, Shukadeva Gosvami, he became
perfect by kirtana. What kind of kirtana did he do? Hm?
Prabhupada: Yes. You are
thinking simply by lungs and karatala [cymbals],
kirtana will go on. Anything we do here, there is no material
connection. It is spiritual. We are not talking for how to increase our
business and enjoy women and wine. That is not our business. Yad
1.5.22]. We are trying to establish Krishna. Uttama-shloka-gunanuvarnanam.
And that is kirtana. [pause] Shravanam kirtanam vishnoh
[Srimad-Bhagavatam 7.5.23]. Hm? You know this?
Svarupa Damodar: Shravanam
Prabhupada: Yes. Just explain
Svarupa Damodar: The other
day, when I went from Delhi to Calcutta in the plane, I happened to see
that Dr. Chatterjee from Calcutta University. She's a lady, woman, but
she's very well known. International scientist she has become. Her name
is Asina Chatterjee. And I never saw her, though I was studying side by
side in the next building, in Calcutta University. She discovered some
drug. That's why she became famous. And she's also a member of Council
of Scientific and Industrial Research all over India, and also a member
of University Grants Commission. So she told me that she went for a
meeting to attend in Delhi, and there was also an engineer who was
sitting in between me and her, and I was discussing about our plan for
scientific conference on Krishna consciousness. He was also Bengali
from Calcutta. Somehow she became very interested. I was explaining how
scientists misleading, thinking that life can be chemical. And I was
describing about how life can be nonchemical and nonphysical. So
Chatterjee immediately joined the talk. And I immediately recognized
that she must be Chatterjee. So I asked her, "Are you Dr. Chatterjee?"
I never saw her before, but I just guessed right. She was Dr. Asina
Chatterjee. And she became very interested in the talk, and then she
was completely agreeing to our discussion that life is something
spiritual, beyond physics and chemistry. So she actually invited me to
come and give a talk in chemistry department Calcutta University. So I
said that we are coming back with our scientific group from Krishna
consciousness and would like to present the philosophy in that
chemistry department. So like that, there are many...
Prabhupada: Yes. Recruit
them, at least some.
Svarupa Damodar: Very
favorable and a person like that, by Krishna's mercy... I never saw her
before, but just happened to be in the right time. And she thought that
whatever is thinking in the Western thought about this Darwinian
philosophy is also wrong. So I requested her that "It is your duty or
responsibility as a leading scientist at least to also present this
knowledge. You only accept that whatever knowledge is coming from the
West, especially in the science, that that is the ultimate. Why don't
you also present this genuine scientific knowledge of the
Gita as factual science? That way..."
Prabhupada: Or very...
Svarupa Damodar: She said
yes. She actually felt the necessity, and she was actually praising a
lot about Krishna consciousness, that such things are being discussed
in our Krishna consciousness society, and she had a great hope that
this can be pushed on and the philosophy can be very accepted in the
scientific community. So I request her also to help us in different
capacities. She can write articles, we can publish in this journal,
Sa-vijnanam. We can print it and publicize more on the
presentation of Vedic scientific knowledge. So like that, I want to
generate some momentum among the leading Indian scientists.
Prabhupada: Hm. Do.
Svarupa Damodar: It will be
very helpful. And I think it is also their responsibility, duty.
Prabhupada: Great duty, great
Svarupa Damodar: I told the
same thing to this Professor Kundu, that "You know all these things,
but you just remain silent. You never speak out. You only accept that
whatever quantum theory is coming from that West, that is all
knowledge, scientific knowledge. What about this aspect?"
Prabhupada: Sir Jagadish was
Svarupa Damodar: Yes. That is
why we want to have a very strong discussion in Bose Institute.
Prabhupada: He wanted to give
to the Western world that there is life in plants, the same Vedic
knowledge. Jalaja nava-lakshani...
Tamal Krsna: I think you
mention in one of your books that he has proved that the plants also
Prabhupada: Hm. That is his
contribution. He is the first man.
Tamal Krsna: Did you know
him, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: No. He was also
older than our father. But I have seen him in childhood, when I was
ten, twelve years old. Very intelligent man, soft speaker. His... This
Marconi's theory is his theory. The wireless... The thief has taken.
They have stolen. And the British government gave credit to Marconi. He
was very sad.
Svarupa Damodar: That
Prabhupada: Yes. The
wireless, there was a system. That was his discovery. He was very
sorry. The British government stole the idea and gave the credit to
Marconi. The Britishers, they always wanted to minimize the value of
India, that "They are not civilized. We are present there to make them
Tamal Krsna: Very... The
English were expert in diplomacy.
Prabhupada: Therefore they
Tamal Krsna: That Dr. Sharma
here, he was saying that the English, they took advantage of..., I
think it was either Chanakya Pandita or one other book about military
ruling, some book. Every one of them would have a copy translated into
English. They'd all keep a copy of it on their desk, how to subdue by
diplomacy and politics. They were all told to learn this book.
Prabhupada: Samrad Veda(?).
That is another.
Svarupa Damodar: I'm thinking
of the title of our conference as "Bhaktivedanta Vijnana Conference."
Prabhupada: They'll take it
farce, that "Bhaktivedanta is no a vaijnani."
Svarupa Damodar: It will be
Prabhupada: It may be, but
they will take it lightly because "Bhaktivedanta Swami is not a
Bhakti Caru: Yeah, but you
are above science, Srila Prabhupada.
Svarupa Damodar: No, this
will be "Bhaktivedanta Vijnana Conference." That includes everything.
Prabhupada: Yes. That you
Svarupa Damodar: I have taken
that idea because in the United States there is a conference called
Garden(?) Conference, and I want to develop this in the future as a
regular feature of our movement, organize this conference all over the
world. We'll title as "Bhaktivedanta Vijnana Conference," and it
involves all sources of knowledge. Just like Garden Conference. They
have a meeting in Boston, in Harvard, in chemistry, and Garden
Conference is in all fields, in physics, chemistry, the humanities. It
is very respected all over the academic world. So we also wanted to
generate a spiritual scientific conference along these lines.
Prabhupada: Bhaktivedanta is
Svarupa Damodar: So is that
title sound not so attractive, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: Yes, but they may
not take it seriously.
Svarupa Damodar: Seriously.
Prabhupada: Yes, personal. Vedanta
means last knowledge. Vedanta is there. And that last knowledge
is bhakti. Therefore bhakti-vedanta is most scientific.
Tamal Krsna: They should
learn the real meaning of Bhaktivedanta. They take it wrongly, but we
should teach them what is the real meaning, that it is scientific. You
always point out that sometimes people say that bhakti is
sentimental, but where is there more scientific person than Jiva
Gosvami, more philosophical?
labhate param. It is the last stage of knowledge. Brahma-bhutah
prasannatma [Bg. 18.54]. When you surpass all the stages... Mad-bhaktim
labhate param. It is the last word of knowledge. Yasmin
vijnate sarvam evam vijnatam bhavanti. So unless you understand
the supreme cause, Krishna, there is no knowledge. And if you
understand Krishna, then you understand everything. Yasmin
vijnate sarvam evam vijnatam bhavanti. Krishna also says, aham
adir hi devanam [Bg 10.2], aham sarvasya prabhavo mattah
sarvam pravartate [Bg. 10.8]. If you understand Krishna, then
everything.... And how Krishna can be understood? Bhaktya mam
abhijanati [Bg. 18.55]. No other way. You cannot understand by
any other way. Therefore bhakti-vedanta is last knowledge.
There is.... Argument there is.
Svarupa Damodar: The reaction
from that Dr. Kundu... As soon as I said Bhaktivedanta, he immediately
realized that this is the personal aspect or, they would say, the
personalism or Vaishnava philosophy. So it is also a good fact on those
who know some meaning about this. So we can make it...
Prabhupada: Unless there is
personal conception, there is no question of bhakti. [break] Bhakti
means the way to understand the person. Bhaktya mam abhijanati
[Bg. 18.55]. Mam means person, aham, mam. Vague idea, Brahman;
distributed idea, Paramatma; and the personal idea can be
applied here. It is said, bhaktya mam abhijanati [Bg.
18.55]. It is not impersonal, not scattered. Particular person,
Krishna. When Yashoda-ma was allowing her child to suck her breast, the
child was.... And Yashoda mother was enjoying the beautiful face,
patting. But all of a sudden she saw within the mouth the whole
universe. Immediately she became disturbed: "Another danger is coming."
She's not concerned with Krishna's expansive, gorgeous [feature]....
She's only concern is to Krishna, what.... She became disturbed: "What
is this nonsense? Again something is coming, danger? Let me remember
Narayana. He'll save my child from all...[danger]." The personal
conception is so strong that she disliked to see gorgeous opulence of
her ... [son].
Tamal Krsna: Therefore it
Prabhupada: That is jnana.
Svarupa Damodar: It's so
scientific, it's very difficult to also describe it, especially in
Prabhupada: Why you have to
Svarupa Damodar: We are
describing that life, or atma, as such. Sometimes they ask,
"Show me the experiment so that I know that there is life," so we are
proposing that "Yes, the experiment is
Prabhupada: Another example
you can give. Suppose a man is high-court judge, very... Now, his
mother is feeding him, sitting down. And if the son says, "No, let me
dress like a high-court judge, then I shall eat," will the mother like
it? That is like... "You become high-court judge and be satisfied."
Svarupa Damodar: Once I gave
a lecture at Emory University to the scientific community, and I tried
to introduce this bhakti-yoga in a scientific language and
found it difficult, but I tried to bring the idea by comparing that an
electron... In order to study an electron, we actually take advantage
of a field where an electric current can be generated. Otherwise the
property of electron cannot be studied in a scientific experiment.
Similarly, we established that atma, being nonphysical and
nonchemical, is spiritual and also has personal character. We must take
advantage of a personal feature where one can have direct relationship
between this individual atma, and there should be also a
supreme atma. And the relationship of the study of this will be
the experimental study, and that experiment is bhakti-yoga.
Prabhupada: I have several
times stressed that living being is a sample of God. If you study
living being, you understand God.
Svarupa Damodar: Actually
it's very true and also very scientific to propose this simile because
life, being nonmaterial...
Prabhupada: It is Vedic
version. Nityo nityanam chetanash chetananm. But where is
the difference? The difference is that eka [one] is so
important that He is the source of everything, and He is maintaining
this bahunam [the countless living entities]. That is... Both
of them, quality, the same. But one is maintaining; others are being
maintained. One is predominator; others are predominated. That is the
difference. Ashraya, vishaya. So therefore when you come to the
ashraya, that is perfection.
Pradyumna: We are all vishaya.
Every living entity is vishaya, and Krishna is the only...
Tamal Krsna: And everybody is
making believe that they are ashraya, trying to gain the
worship of others.
Prabhupada: He cannot be.
Tamal Krsna: False ashraya.
Prabhupada: All these big,
big leaders, they want to become ashraya. Gandhi wanted to be ashraya.
And he was kicked out: "Get out! You are vishaya. You are
trying to be ashraya." Immediately kicked out. That is false
theory, Mayavada. Bhakativinoda ashraya... What is that song?
in that last line, Bhaktivinoda ashraya.
Tamal Krsna: Yeah, the
spiritual master is the shelter.
Prabhupada: No, spiritual
master is under the shelter of Krishna.
Pradyumna: Spiritual master
is also vishaya.
Prabhupada: Everyone is vishaya,
ashraya. Ultimate ashraya is Krishna. Mattah
parataram nanyat [Bg. 7.7]. There is no more superior ashraya.
Tamal Krsna: Can't we say
that because the spiritual master is taking shelter of Krishna, he is
Prabhupada: Therefore he is ashraya,
electrified. Sakshad-dharitvena samastra-shastrair uktas tatha
bhavyata eva, kintu prabhor yah priya eva tasya. Priya vishaya.
Therefore he can act as ashraya. Ashraya laiya bhaje,
krishna nahi tare tyaje, ara saba more akara. Narottama dasa
Thakura. Ashraya laiya bhaje, krishna nahi tare tyaje, ara saba
more akara. Others simply wasting time.
Svarupa Damodar: The mental
attitude of the inquirer or the seeker in this bhakti process,
you also said, it plays a very important role in understanding this
relationship between the jiva, or individual life, atma,
and Paramatma, these two relationships. So we proposed that since it is
based on psychological interactions, willing, feeling and the thinking,
so the attitude should be humble and it should not be arrogant, and it
should feel the limitations. Actually we try to bring all the
brahminical qualities in order to study this bhakti-yoga in a
scientific manner, and we presented like that, briefly, in a scientific
community, and it was mildly accepted. They were just thinking that...
Prabhupada: Therefore in the
society there must be qualified brahmana. The all rascals, shudras,
Svarupa Damodar: Just like in
a scientific experiment we have so many conditions...
Prabhupada: Just this morning
I gave: balayor anayor nrinam brahmano rupa... Nanda
Maharaja. Bring that book.
Prabhupada: Tvam hi
[sic:] brahma-bhujam shreshthah. Gargamuni is addressed by Nanda
Maharaja. Tvam hi brahma-bhujam shreshthah, balayor anayor
nrinam brahmano rupa. Seven.... Eighth Chapter. There is mark.
Read there. Just let...
hi brahma-vidam shreshthah
samskaran kartum arhasi
balayor anayor nrinam
janmana brahmano guruh
Prabhupada: Janmana brahmano guruh.
As soon as you take birth, brahmana is your guru. So
where is brahmana? Tad-vijnanartham sa gurum eva
abhigacchet [Mundaka Upanishad 1.2.12]. Where is
that guru? Therefore the society, chaotic condition.... As soon
as you take birth, you have to accept brahmana guru. So there
must be brahmanas. Therefore Krishna says, chatur-varnyam
maya srishtam [Bg. 4.13]. There must be
brahmanas. Otherwise where is human society? It is animal society.
In the animal society they are clever, enjoy. "How! How! How! How!"
Jackals and tigers and big, this animal, that animal, they are
everything. Where is the brahmana? This is the first time
attempt is being made—"There must be brahmanas"—this Krishna
consciousness movement. They do not know the aim of life, how it should
be organized, what kind of members there should be. No knowledge.
Therefore I have challenged that "Your brain is filled up with stool.
You do not know how human society is happy." Here is janmana
brahmano guruh. So where is brahmana? Janmana
Actually this Krishna consciousness movement is a process of making
this animal society into human civilization. At the present moment
especially, all animals. I take them as animals. Therefore I say so
boldly. I care for them. They are animals. That's all. Maybe very well
do. I have not said. Bhagavata says. Shva-vid-varahoshtra-kharaih
samstutah purushah pashuh [SB 2.3.19]. What are these leaders? Pashu.
"Pashu? And they are so much held in estimation." Whom? By whom?
Shva-vid-varahoshtra-kharaih: "They are in
estimation by the dogs and hogs and camels and asses." Actually they
have no position. The public is dog, hog, camel and.... And they are
selecting one leader. So what he should be? Another big pashu,
another big camel, another big ass. That's all. Shva-vid-
varahoshtra-kharaih samstutah purushah pashuh. A big animal.
These leaders, they are only big animals. Just like in the jungle, a
lion. A very powerful. Then does it mean that he's human being? He's
animal. May be an elephant or lion, but he's not human being. A human
child is more important than this lion. It doesn't matter that the
human child is taken away by the lion and immediately killed or
carried. That does not make the lion very important. A big pashu.
Svarupa Damodar: So the
brahminical qualifications are prerequisites to conduct this bhakti
experiment. That's why we want to bring it indirectly, even in a
scientific lecture, by making similes with normal conditions necessary
to do any experiment. So we make it a conditions necessary. Otherwise
you cannot just do experiment without...
shamo damo titiksha arjava, jnanam vijnanam astikyam brahma-
karma svabhava... [Bg. 18.42]. Where is that?
Tamal Krsna: That Dr. Kapoor,
your Godbrother? There's an article that was published in Back
to Godhead. So he proves that spirit can be brought out of
matter, provided that the bhakti, the brahmana, the
person, develops brahminical qualities to the point of purity. And he
uses the example of Prahlada Maharaja, that because Prahlada Maharaja
had developed such a pure love for Krishna, Krishna came out of a
material element, the pillar, to prove Himself: "Here is God." So
spirit came right out of matter. So Dr. Kapoor used the point that if
you want to see spirit, qualify yourself. Then you'll be able to see
spirit. You can make spirit come right out of matter.
Prabhupada: That is sarvam
khalv idam brahma.
Svarupa Damodar: Actually
that's a good example, that, the one that we are using, same simile,
that in order to study this life being nonphysical, so the experiment
also has to be nonphysical, not that directly we observe just like any
other material experiment. So those conditions necessary have to be
fulfilled in order to conduct this experiment. So they become very
quiet. The audience doesn't..., becomes serious, at the same time
quiet. Let them think, "Yes, these things are part of the clear
thinking and at very high level." So that since these experiments are
nonphysical, the conditions necessary must be very subtle. And the...
Because the diet that man eats also plays a very important role, and
the brain has to be very clean, and the habit must be very clean.
Otherwise these experiments...
This is called anartha-nirvrittih.
Adau shraddha tatah sadhu-sangah tato bhajana-kriya, atha
anartha-nirvritti syat [Chaitanya-charitamrita
Madhya 23.14-15]. Cheto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya
20.12]. Shrinvatam sva-kathah krishnah punya-shravana
-kirtanah, hridy antah-stho abhadrani [SB 1.2.17]. These are abhadrani.
Svarupa Damodar: You have so
mercifully given us so many wonderful instructions, Srila Prabhupada.
If we can develop just fraction of it...
Prabhupada: That is your
decision. I can suggest fundamental principles. Now you can develop, as
you have already begun. So they are accepting this scientific...
Svarupa Damodar: Oh, yes.
Prabhupada: Bose Institute
Svarupa Damodar: They are
doing many kinds of research on life. They're specializing on life
sciences. But they have also been taken away by the Western ideas, I
gather. So first of all, when I went... Actually there is a professor
called Professor Bakat(?) in science college. He was my former teacher.
So he took me along. So it makes things very easy because he knew all
of them, and he had great appreciation for us, like a father. He's a
professor, full-time professor, and he knew all these friends, big, big
scientists there. First of all, Professor Bakat introduced me, "He's
from the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. He's former
student, but now fully engaged in scientific Krishna consciousness." So
they thought it is some sort of religion. Then... "No, no, he's not
speaking about religion. He's speaking about the science of life and
about the fundamental principles of life and matter and its origin."
Then they changed their little outlook.
Prabhupada: Then they changed?
Svarupa Damodar: Yes. Then
they became little... They opened up their mouth and then started
talking. Then, once they start talking, then we can generate some
platform where we can actually discuss. This Amrtabhal Sena is a
professor in Bose Institute. First of all he asked my qualifications,
said what, what do I have. Then I said I studied in the States, and I
had this degree, and I was working this line. Actually I told him all
the sophisticated experiments that we did when I was studying. And he
was very impressed with those ideas or experiments that I did which
they don't do here. Then he asked me... First of all he was interested
"How you became... How you left those things and become a devotee of
Krishna?" Then I... At that point I got the opportunity to explain how
science is an attempt to see the unknown laws of nature, in other words
to find at least the ultimate cause or the Absolute Truth. Vaguely it's
an attempt at least amongst those highly thoughtful scientists. They
think like that. But we are seeing at this stage of our scientific age
that science is not giving those answers. Rather, science is failing.
We thought we would do like this, that, and so many experiments and so
much knowledge we uncovered, but we do not know anything about life, so
there are limitations of this scientific knowledge. So there must be
something higher. It cannot be the finishing stage at this moment. So
there must be something higher. It cannot be the finishing stage at
this moment. So there must be something higher beyond what we know so
far. That is why I was interested in knowing more about the principles
of life. It cannot be just coming momentarily for some time and staying
and getting a family and getting some false prestige. That cannot be
the ultimate. There must be something higher. Then he began to
understood what I meant and he accepted, "Yes, it's true." That he
agreed, "Yes, we are not... The knowledge that we have is not able to
give all the answers. In fact, science doesn't know anything about
life. But we are leaving this most important knowledge of life and just
studying something garbage in the name of scientific knowledge."
Prabhupada: [laughs] You have
Svarupa Damodar: So he became
very interested. That's why he took me in an hour. About five minutes
he gave me. Then he extended about an hour to a very interesting talk.
And he became very impressed with the ideas about Bhagavad-gita.
And Dr. Kunja(?) asked me, "What shloka [verse] are you using
Bhagavad-gita?" Then I was describing about nainam
chindanti shastrani nainam dahati pavakah [Bg. 2.23]. "We're
developing that on a scientific language." And he was very impressed
with our presentation for the nature of consciousness and quantum
physics. So they thought that this is very unique, and they never
thought that this could be done. They have great respect for Srila
Prabhupada also. Said that they have read Bhagavad-gita As It Is.
And they actually accepted and developed lot of scientific thoughts,
appropriating with our current scientific frame from Bhagavad-gita.
So once they have that feeling developed properly...
Prabhupada: It will further
Svarupa Damodar: Yes. It's
unlimited, scientific knowledge. It's all Srila Prabhupada's mercy that
all these people are getting at least a second thought, being born in
this material, just been carried away by some sort of temporary
knowledge without really knowing what real knowledge is behind. Now, by
Prabhupada's mercy, they have been given the opportunity also to think
Prabhupada: Yes. You are
proper person to understand what is pervading(?). Monkey cannot
understand what is pervading(?). Just like mother Sita. When Hanuman
approached, she gave her pearl necklace. He immediately removed it. So
one who knows pearl and one does not know pearl. Anyway, it is all
Krishna's desire that you are combined together. So it is my duty to
show you, "Here is the pearl." Now, to the few, value of pearl will be
appreciated. All theories, bogus, vyapa, garbage(?)... At least
you have got now basic principles to talk with high-grade scientists.
Svarupa Damodar: Yes.
Prabhupada: But I dared to
approach them because I am confident that what I am presenting, it is
solid. There is no mistake. It is solid. I never said, "May be, may not
be." No. Life cannot come from matter. Never. And the knowledge
distribution takes some time. They have distributed ignorance by taking
time. We have to distribute knowledge by taking time. False
knowledge... Simply promise, future hope... Durashaya. Punah
punash charvita-charvananam [SB 7.5.30]. Na te viduh
svartha-gatim hi vishnum durashaya bahir-artha-maninah, andha
yathandhair upaniyamana... [SB 7.5.31]. The society remains in
darkness, misled by blind men. We want to save the human society from
this catastrophe. This is our noble mission. Why they should remain in
darkness? Karmis, jnanis, yogis.... That should be. Just like
some professor in Bangalore, they are trying to expose this Sai Baba.
Why? Because they are scientific men, they are protesting, "Why this
rascal should keep so many men in darkness? The same rascal. By false
propaganda he is appearing mukta, God. What about Sai Baba? We
don't see anything.
Tamal Krsna: No new news
about him. Same tricks. He does the same tricks.
Prabhupada: He is half
Satadhanya: He's a juggler,
Svarupa Damodar: Balesvara
Yogi is also almost finished.
Svarupa Damodar: Nobody takes
seriously now. I saw an article just a few weeks ago about Balesvara
Yogi, how he is, you know, he has not been accepted. Rather, it's
increasing that many believe him that he's just fake.
Prabhupada: He's bogus.
Tamal Krsna: In Hrishikesh,
when he saw how strongly you were preaching, especially to his, you
know, his student teachers, he sent a message that "As you are not
feeling well, you should take complete rest." He was a little worried.
Prabhupada was preaching so strongly in Hrishikesh, and he was there
Svarupa Damodar: Oh,
Tamal Krsna: Yeah.
Prabhupada: Hm. He wanted to
invite me. I refused, "I cannot..."
Tamal Krsna: Then he sent a
message that "You should take complete rest and not do any preaching."
Svarupa Damodar: Recently I
saw a book in Boston. It was from England, that book. The title was
called The Origin of Johnny. Johnny's the name of a
Prabhupada: Johnny Walker.
Svarupa Damodar: And it was
very interesting, that book. That was... This is the Origin of Species.
That was Darwin's book. This was the modern version of Darwin's book.
It's about this big, and it's full of nice colors with all molecules,
DNA and all these nice, modern-looking molecules, and then they say...
They start... It starts like this, "In the beginning there was a big
blank." [Prabhupada laughs]
Prabhupada: "There was..."?
Svarupa Damodar: "There was a
blank. There was a void." Everything was blank. And the way he started,
the foreword was given by a scientist called Crick, Watson and Crick.
Crick is in Cambridge, and Watson is in Harvard. So these two men were
the men who discovered the structure of the DNA molecule that they
thought that may be life. And they got Nobel Prize for this. And Crick
was writing in the first page, saying that "This is the way we have
understood about life." But "Everything was started like that, from
blank and a blank, blank. And somehow all these molecules get together
and then it became Johnny later on." [laughter] And we can make a nice
story out of it.
Svarupa Damodar: They make
such a story that sometime they make the little children believe and
thought that it might be the fact.
Prabhupada: Fairy tales.
Svarupa Damodar: Yes, so we
titled, called, Chemical Evolution-A Molecular Fairy Tale.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes.
Svarupa Damodar: And we have
Prabhupada: [laughs] That is
Svarupa Damodar: And we also
have a little chapter called "Intellectual Dishonesty Among the
Scientists," and said, "Let's be honest about it. These things are not
Prabhupada: This is
intellectual dishonesty. They produce sputnik and going to the moon in
Svarupa Damodar: Yes.
Prabhupada: And then it is
exposed, "Moon Hoax." This is intellect... There was a... There were
many films. One film was... What is that? A big monkey?
Tamal Krsna: King Kong.
Prabhupada: [laughs] King
Kong. They are producing chemical laboratory, yes, studio, and the
Tamal Krsna: Yeah, they
showed him going up and down the Empire State Building in a movie.
Prabhupada: And it was so
interesting, it gathered so many public to see.
Tamal Krsna: Now they have
another one, "King Kong Returns." Still it's very popular.
Prabhupada: So they can do
Tamal Krsna: They made
another one where they go into the human body. They make the man very
small, and then they send him on a trip through the human body, and
he's fighting with germs. He gets attacked by germs, and the whole
thing is very believable.