As soon as you say "it is supposed," it is not scientific.
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[Posted May 3, 2006]

Who is the Greatest Scientist?

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Founder-Acharya of the world-wide Hare Krishna Movement, Brahma Sampradaya Acharya

Srila Prabhupada

Talk with Bob Cohen, Feburary 27-29, 1972, Mayapur

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Syamasundar: How is Krishna the greatest scientist?

Prabhupada: Because He knows everything. A scientist means one who knows a subject matter thoroughly. He's scientist. Krishna, He knows everything.

Bob: You said... I told you I teach science. You had said something about teaching, or teaching of science.

Prabhupada: Yes. Teaching, unless you have got perfect knowledge how you can teach? That is our proposition.

Bob: Without perfect knowledge, though, you can teach what knowledge you have.

Prabhupada: No, that is cheating. That is not teaching, that is cheating. Just like the scientists said, "There was a chunk, and the creation took place, perhaps..." What is this? Simply cheating. It is not teaching, it is cheating.

Bob: Let me say what else you said this morning that was interesting. [Addressing the others present] I asked him [Srila Prabhupada] about miracles, and Prabhupada said that only a fool would believe in miracles because... Let us say you are a child and an adult lifts this table. That's a miracle. Or you're a chemist, and you combine acid and base and make smoke, an explosion or whatever. To somebody ignorant, that's a miracle. And for everything there's a process. And so when you see a miracle, it's just ignorance of the process. So that only a fool would believe in miracles, and, you correct me if I say wrong...

Prabhupada: Yes, yes.

Bob: ...that when Jesus came, the people then were somewhat more ignorant and needed miracles as aid. Was that... I wasn't sure if that's quite what you said.

Prabhupada: Yes, yes, yes. Miracle means ignorant.

Bob: I had asked this in relation to all the miracle men you hear about in India.

Prabhupada: Krishna is the highest miracle man.

Bob: Yes.

Prabhupada: That is stated by Kunti.

Bob: Without perfect knowledge, can I not teach some things? For example, I may...

Prabhupada: You can teach up to that, which point you know.

Bob: But should not claim to teach more than I know.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is cheating.

Yasodanandan: In other words, you can't teach the truth...

Prabhupada: Huh?

Yasodanandan: can't teach the truth with partial knowledge.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is not possible by any human being. Because any human being, his senses are imperfect. So how he can teach perfect knowledge? Just like you see the sun like a disc. You have no means to approach the sun. If you say, "We can see the sun by telescope and this and that," that is also made by you. And you are imperfect, your instrument is imperfect. Because that telescope you can say that you are seeing, but that machine is made by you, and you are imperfect. How your machine can be perfect? Therefore your knowledge of the sun is imperfect. So you don't teach about sun unless you have got perfect. That is cheating.

Bob: But what about to teach that it is supposed that the sun is 93,000,000 miles away?

Prabhupada: As soon as you say "it is supposed," it is not scientific.

Bob: Yeah, but I think almost all of science, then, is not scientific. Because all science... [laughter]

Prabhupada: That is the point.

Bob: Oh, I see. Is based on, you know, suppositions of this or that. So imperfect knowledge may be taught...

Prabhupada: Huh?

Bob: Imperfect...

Prabhupada: They're teaching imperfect. Just like they are advertising so much about moon. Do you think the knowledge is perfect?

Bob: No.

Prabhupada: Then?

Bob: What do you think is the proper duty of the teacher? What is the proper duty of the teacher in society? Let's say a science teacher. What should he be doing in the classroom?

Prabhupada: Classroom, you should simply teach about Krishna.

Bob: He should not teach about...

Prabhupada: No, that will include everything. But his aim should be how to know Krishna.

Bob: Can a scientist teach the science of combining acid and alkaline and this kind of science with Krishna as its object?

Prabhupada: How it can be?

Bob: If you... When one studies science, one finds general tendencies of nature, and these general tendencies of nature point to a controlling force.

Prabhupada: That I was explaining the other day. Where? In Madras, or where? "Who has supplied these chemicals?"

Syamasundar: Ah, in Madras.

Prabhupada: I asked one chemist that according to chemical formula, hydrogen and oxygen mixed, it becomes water. Is it not?

Bob: That's true.

Prabhupada: Now, this vast water in the Atlantic Ocean and Pacific Ocean, how much chemicals were required?

Bob: How much?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Bob: Oh, I don't know.

Prabhupada: How many tons?

Bob: Many.

Prabhupada: So who supplied it?

Bob: This was supplied by God.

Prabhupada: Somebody must have supplied.

Bob: Yes.

Prabhupada: So that is... You can teach like that.

Bob: And should one bother teaching that if you combine acid and alkaline...

Prabhupada: The same thing, the same thing, that now we have to..., that... There are so many effervescence. So, who is performing it? Who is supplying the acid and alkaline?

Bob: So this comes from the same source as the water.

Prabhupada: Yes. Water you cannot manufacture unless you have got hydrogen and oxygen. So here is a vast... Not only this Atlantic or Pacific, there are millions of planets, and there are millions of Atlantic and Pacific oceans. So who created this water with hydrogen and oxygen, and how it was supplied? That is our question. Somebody must have supplied; otherwise how it came to existence?

Bob: But should it also be taught how you make water from hydrogen and oxygen? The procedure of burning them together, should this also be taught? That if you burn hydrogen and oxygen together...

Prabhupada: That is secondary.

Bob: Excuse me?

Prabhupada: That is secondary. That is not very difficult. Just like this Malati made puri. So there is flour and there is ghee, and she made puri, but unless there is ghee and flour, where is the chance of making puri? In the Bhagavad-gita there is this, "Water, earth, air, fire, they are made of My energy."

Bob: Made of, what is that?

Prabhupada: "My energy."

Bob: Ah.

Prabhupada: What is your body? This external body, that is your energy. Do you know that? The body is made out of your own energy. Just like I am eating.

Bob: Yeah.

Prabhupada: So I am creating some energy, and therefore my body is maintained.

Bob: Oh, I see.

Prabhupada: So therefore your body is made out of your energy.

Bob: But when you eat the food, there is energy from the sun in the food...

Prabhupada: No, that... I am giving the example, I am creating some energy by digesting the food and that is maintaining my body. Therefore my body is maintained by my energy. If your energy supply is not proper, then your body becomes not in proper order. Therefore the conclusion is that your body is made out of your own energy. Similarly, why this big gigantic body, universes, is not made of Krishna's energies? How can you deny? As your body is made out of your energy, similarly, the universal body must be made by somebody's energy. That is Krishna.

Bob: I have to think about that. I have to think about it to follow that.

Prabhupada: Why follow? It is a fact. [Bob laughs] Your hairs are growing daily. Why? Because you have got some energy.

Bob: The energy I obtain from my food.

Prabhupada: Somehow or other, you have obtained that energy. And through that energy your hairs are growing. So if your body is manufactured by your energy, similarly, the whole gigantic manifestation is made of God's energy. It is a fact it is not your energy.

Bob: Yeah. O.K. I see that.

Syamasundar: Just like, aren't the planets in this universe the sun's energy, a product of the sun's energy?

Prabhupada: Yes. But who produced the sun? That is Krishna's energy. Because it is heat, and Krishna says, bhumir apo 'nalo vayuh [Bhagavad-gita 7.4]. Analah, analah, heating. "That is My energy." The sun is representation of the heating energy of Krishna. It is not your energy. You cannot say that "The sun is made by me." But somebody must have made. And Krishna says. So we believe therefore Krishna. Therefore we are Krishna-ites.

Bob: Krishnaites.

Prabhupada: Yes. Our knowledge is perfect. You cannot say... If I say that "Heat is energy of Krishna," you cannot defy it. Because it is not your energy. Just like in your body there is some certain extent of heat. Similarly... Heat is somebody's body's energy. And who is that body? That is Krishna. Krishna says, "Yes, it is My energy." So my knowledge is perfect. Therefore I am the greatest scientist. Because I take the version of the greatest scientist, therefore I am greatest scientist. I may be fool personally, but because I take the knowledge from the greatest scientist, I am greatest scientist. I have no difficulty.

Bob: Excuse me?

Prabhupada: I have no difficulty to become the greatest scientist. Because I take the knowledge from the greatest scientist. "This earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and ego—they are My eight separated energies." [Bhagavad-gita 7.4]

Bob: They're separate energies?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Brahmananda: Separated.

Prabhupada: Separated. Separate, no? Just like this milk. What is this milk? The separated energy of the cow. Is it not? It is the manifestation of the separated energy of cow.

Syamasundar: Is it like a by-product?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Bob: So what is the significance of this energy being separated from Krishna?

Prabhupada: Separated means this is made out of the body of the cow, but is is not cow. That is separation.

Bob: So this earth and all is made out of Krishna, but is not Krishna?

Prabhupada: It is not Krishna. Or you can say, Krishna and not Krishna simultaneously. That is our philosophy. One and different. You cannot say different because these things without Krishna has no existence. At the same time you cannot say, "Then let me worship water. Why Krishna?" That the pantheists, they say, that "Because everything is God, so whatever I take, that is God worship." The Rama-Krishna Mission says like that. But that's wrong.

Bob: The Rama-Krishna Mission says that?

Prabhupada: Yes. And the Mayavadis. "Because everything is made of God, therefore everything is God." That is their... But our philosophy is everything is God, but not God also.

Bob: So what on earth is God? Is there anything on earth that is God?

Prabhupada: Yes. Because it is made out of the energy of God. But [that] does not mean that anything you worship, you worship God.

Bob: So what is on earth, though, is not maya. It is...

Prabhupada: Maya means energy.

Bob: It means energy.

Prabhupada: Yes. Maya, another meaning: illusion. So foolish persons, the energy is accepted as the energetic. That is maya. Just like sunshine. Sunshine enters your room. Sunshine is the energy of the sun. But because the sunshine has entered in your room you cannot say the sun has entered. If sun enters, then your room and yourself, everything will be finished immediately. [laughter] You'll not have the leisure to understand that sun has entered. Is it not?

Bob: It is so.

Prabhupada: But you cannot say that sunshine is not sun. But without sun, where is the sunshine? So you cannot say sunshine is not sun. But at the same time it is not sun. It is sun and not sun, both. That is our philosophy. Achintya-bhedabheda, inconceivable. In the material science you cannot conceive that a thing simultaneously positive and negative. That you cannot think. That is inconceivable energy. And because everything is Krishna's energy, Krishna can manifest Himself from any energy, and act. Therefore, when we worship Krishna made of something of earth, water, or something like that, that is Krishna. You cannot say it is not Krishna. When you worship this metal form of Krishna, that is Krishna. That's a fact. Because metal is energy of Krishna. Therefore it is non-different from Krishna. And Krishna's so powerful that He can present Himself fully in His energy. So this Deity worship is not heathenism. It is actually worshiping God, provided you know the process.

Bob: If you know the process, then the Deity becomes Krishna?

Prabhupada: Yes. Not becomes, it [is] Krishna.

Bob: The Deity is Krishna.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Bob: But only if you know the process of it.

Prabhupada: Yes. Just like this electric wire is Krishna..., er, is electricity. One who knows the process he can derive electricity out of it.

Syamasundar: Otherwise it's just wire.

Prabhupada: That's all.

Bob: So if I build a statue of Krishna, it is not Krishna. But if I, unless I know the process...

Prabhupada: No, it is Krishna. But you have to know the process that it is Krishna. It is Krishna.

Bob: It is not just earth and mud, it is Krishna...

Prabhupada: No, earth... Earth has no separate existence without Krishna. Krishna says, "It's my energy." You cannot separate the energy and the energetic. It is not possible. You cannot separate heat from fire. But fire is different from the heat. And heat is different from the fire. You are taking heat, that does not mean you are touching fire. Fire, in spite of expanding heat, it keeps its identity. Similarly, Krishna by His different energies creating everything, He remains Krishna. The Mayavadi philosophers, they think, "If Krishna is everything, then Krishna's separate identity is not there." That is material thinking. Just like drinking this milk, so little, little, when I finish, there is no more milk. It has gone to my belly. Krishna is not like that. Because He's omnipotent, we are utilizing His energy continually, but still He's there, present. Just like a man begetting children unlimitedly, but the man is there. Crude example. But not that because he has produced hundreds of children, therefore he is finished. So similarly, God or Krishna, in spite of His unlimited number of children, He's there. Purnasya purnam adaya purnam eva avashishyate [Ishopanishad Invocation]. This is Krishna consciousness. Krishna is never finished. So powerful, therefore He is attractive. This is one side of the display of Krishna's energies. Similarly, He has got unlimited energies. This study of Krishna's energy is only one side, one portion only. So in this way if you go on studying Krishna, that is Krishna consciousness. It is not a bogus thing, that "maybe," "perhaps not." Absolutely. It is.

Syamasundar: And the study itself is never finished.

Prabhupada: No. How can you? Krishna has unlimited energy.

Reckless Driving and Reckless Science/ WORLD SANKIRTAN PARTY
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