I once got a call from a couple whose son, a student at
an elite college, had run up a huge credit card debt. His parents
realized they had a problem and called to make a therapy appointment. I
told them I wanted to see all three of them, but when the parents
showed up, they told me their son had refused to come.
by PATRICIA DALTON
The tendency to shirk the burden of responsibility permeates
our family rooms and our boardrooms. I saw it in Vice President Dick
Cheney's belated response to the shooting incident last month. And it
has characterized former Enron Chairman Kenneth Lay's public statements
since his company's debacle: "Of anything and everything that I could
imagine might happen to me in my lifetime," Lay said in Houston in
December, "the one thing I would have never even remotely speculated
about was that someday I would become entangled in our country's
criminal justice system."
Lay sounds like the spokesman for our culture of victimhood, which
reflects a studiously nonjudgmental attitude toward one's own behavior
while ignoring its effects on others. And it is based on this belief
system: I am more important than most people; I am good; therefore, I
am incapable of doing bad things.
The upshot?
Excuses, excuses, excuses ...
Evasive attitudes are learned, refined and reinforced in the home.
Ultimately, people become so divorced from the impact of their actions
that they freely take advantage of others.
Interview
with Judith Wax, free-lance journalist and editing manager of
Playboy magazine, July 5, 1975, Chicago.
Sri Govinda:
They [Mr. and Mrs. Wax] would like to interview you and tape record
possibly for using in one of their magazines. Prabhupada: Jayatirtha, you can come here. If required,
you will reply. What is that? Jayatirtha: This is the article that Mrs. Wax has written,
and it was published in Harper's. It's one of the big
national magazines. It's about Gurukula. Prabhupada: Oh. Jayatirtha: It's nicely written. Prabhupada: Oh. Jayatirtha: It's called "Raise Your Hand if You're an
Eternal Spirit Soul." Prabhupada: Oh. Mrs. Wax: Thank you. It's an honor to be here. Because I
wrote the article about Gurukula, I'm interested in what has happened
there. I was there last summer. Do you have plans for other schools?
And what is happening with Gurukula now? Is it standing? Prabhupada: Hmm? Jayatirtha: She wants to know what our plan is for
Gurukula, whether we want to start other Gurukulas in other places.
.. Prabhupada: So you can explain what is the idea of
Gurukula. Jayatirtha: [indistinct] ...talking of other things.
Generally he likes to address more philosophical questions. Mrs. Wax: All right. Jayatirtha: Because the questions about the future of the
society. Others devotees can answer this. Well, the philosophical
questions that are not daily [indistinct]. Prabhupada: We want to raise first-class man. Try to
understand. The present society, we are creating fourth-class men.
Therefore we are not in very happy condition. We want to raise the
fourth-class man to first-class man. First-class man means with
qualification who can control the mind, control the senses, always very
cleansed and truthful, very simple, full of all kinds of knowledge,
practical application in life, then to have full knowledge of God,
these are the characteristics of first-class man. So at the present
moment everyone is a fourth-class man. So we want to get some
first-class men. That is required. Because there is no idea,
first-class man, therefore people are becoming full of crimes. You have
seen the article in the Time? "Crime, Why and What to Do?" That is the
concern of the materialistic society. So we are trying to raise a group
of men who will be ideal. Just like our devotees. You will find their
characters different from all others, at least in your country. They do
not have illicit sex, they do not eat meat, they do not have any
intoxication, even smoking or taking tea, they do not indulge in
gambling, they chant holy name of God, lead very simple life. So we are
creating first-class men. There is need. It is not that everyone will
become first-class man, but at least a section of man must be
first-class so that others can see that what is the ideal character of
man. So this Gurukula means from the childhood age we are training them
so that in future it will be easier. That is the purpose of Gurukula. Mrs. Wax: The four natural divisions... I understand that
at Vrindavana, that that will be an example to American society, but
how can the four natural divisions of man be translated into American
society? Prabhupada: It has to be. If you don't, then you must
suffer with all these criminals. That is natural. Just like in your
body there is head, and there is arm, and there is belly, and there is
leg. The head is the most important part. Why? Why not all legs? Why
there are different divisions? Similarly, in the human society, if we
want to make it perfect, there must be head, there must be arm, there
must be belly, there must be legs. So leg can walk, but leg cannot do
the work of brain. So at the present moment we have got all walking
men, no brain. Therefore the society is in chaotic condition. There is
no brain in the society. That is the defect of modern civilization. In
the Bhagavad-gita it is stated, chatur-varnyam
maya srishtam guna-karma-vibhagashah [Bhagavad-gita
4.13]. According to quality and work, there are four divisions. Four
divisions. So similarly, four divisions must be there: a group of men,
first-class; a group of men, administrators; a group of men, food
producer; and a group of men, general worker. So the brain is the
chief. If your body... There are other parts, but if your head is cut
off, then what is the use of other parts? If your hand is cut off, you
can live. If your leg is cut off, you can live. But if your head is cut
off, then finished. So that is lacking in the present society, no brain
how to guide, so that whole human... If the brain is there, then it can
guide. It can ask the hand to work in a certain way, the leg to work in
certain way, to eat in a certain way. Then the health of the whole body
will be quite competent. But if there is no brain, then everything...
Just like a man becomes mad when the brain is not working. Mrs. Wax: Who will decide what the propensities are,
Prabhupada? Prabhupada: Hm? Jayatirtha: Who is to decide whether a person is
first-class, if they are a brahmana or whether they are kshatriya
or vaishya? Prabhupada: The book of knowledge. You can read Bhagavad-gita.
Find out, shamah damah titiksha. Jayatirtha:
shamo
damas tapah shaucham
kshantir arjavam eva cha
jnanam vijnanam aästikyam
brahma-karma svabhava-jam [Bhagavad-gita 18.42]
"Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty,
wisdom, knowledge, and religiousness—these are the qualities by which a
brahmana works."
Prabhupada:
This is first-class. Now shamo damah... Shamah means
controlling the mind, mind is always peaceful. You can train. Then
controlling the senses. Then truthful. Then full of knowledge,
practical application of knowledge in life. These are the
qualifications
of first-class man. Everything is there. If you train a boy to become
first-class man, he can become first-class man. If you don't train,
then he will become a debauch, criminal, disturbing. So we are training
in the Gurukula to become first-class men. This is our aim. Unless in
the society an ideal first-class man, then how one will become, or
follow the ideal? There is no ideal. Now what is the idea of
first-class man now? Can I ask you? What is your idea of first-class
man? Whom do you call first-class man? Jayatirtha: Do you know any first-class men? Mrs. Wax: I can't find any in the society. [laughs] Prabhupada: That is the defect. We have no idea who is
first-class man. Everyone is drunkard, everyone smoker, everyone is
gambler, everyone is illicit sex, where is first-class man? So in the
absence of first-class man there must be criminals. Aiye. So there is a
need of first-class men, first-class men and second-class men.
Third-class, fourth-class, fifth-class, they are automatically there.
So at the present moment fourth-class, fifth-class men. Third-class is
also very scarcely found, and there is no question of first-class,
second-class. But as in the full body we require brain, we require arm,
we require belly, we require leg... Everything is required for
different purposes of work. But at the present moment there is no place
for the first-class men. When we ask our students that "You become free
from all these four classes of sinful activity: no illicit sex, no
meat-eating," people laugh: "Oh, why you are asking?" They do not know
what is the ideal man. They think, "Illicit sex, what is wrong there?
Meat-eating, what is wrong there?" They do not know what is right and
wrong. Therefore all fourth-class men. They cannot understand even what
is the value of these things. So you cannot be happy with fourth-class
men. At least there must be a section, first-class men. That we are
trying to create, a first-class man from this Gurukula. Mrs. Wax: The ten-year-old boys who left Gurukula and went
to Vrindavana and then went to Mayapur, what will they...? They will be
trained in the divisions there and come back? Prabhupada: No, that is the ideal, mind completely
controlled, senses completely controlled, truthful and simple life. In
this way they will be trained up gradually. And we have got one hundred
books like that. If they read all these books and if they are trained
up in their character, then they will be, in future, first-class men. Mrs. Wax: Would you comment on the current political
situation in India, what's happening right now? Prabhupada: Yes, that will happen everywhere because there
is no first-class man. Mrs. Wax: So it doesn't matter if Narayana is successful? Prabhupada: No. Mrs. Wax: None of them are first-class people is what
you're saying. Prabhupada: They are politician. That also... All of them
are fourth-class men. The fighting is between two section of
fourth-class men. They do not know what is first-class man. Although
the Bhagavad-gita is there, they do not know, neither do
they care. Just like I was telling. When we propose that "No illicit
sex, no meat eating," they laugh, "Hah! What is that?" But when they
are put into trouble they say, "What to do?" When there is crime they
say, "What to do?" They do not know how to tackle the situation because
they are all third-class, fourth-class men. They do not know. They
become disappointed. Mrs. Wax: I realize that we're all considered spirit
souls. But can a woman be first-class if she... Prabhupada: Anyone can become first-class. Woman can
become first-class if she is chaste and very much attached to husband.
And if the husband is first-class, she becomes first-class. Because
woman's duty is to follow husband. So if the husband is first-class,
the wife is first-class, if she sticks to the husband. Mrs. Wax: But she can never be first-class unless she has
a first class husband. Prabhupada: No, she is first class by following faithfully
husband. And if the husband is first-class, then woman is first-class. Mrs. Wax: Could a woman be a temple president? Prabhupada: Yes, why not? Mrs. Wax: Glad to hear it. Prabhupada: But because women are less intelligent, they
should remain dependent on first-class father, first-class husband, and
first-class son. Then she is first-class. That is the injunction. Woman
should remain dependent in childhood upon first-class father, in
youthhood upon first-class husband, and in old age upon first-class
son. Woman is never independent. If she becomes independent, her life
is not very good. She must agree to remain dependent on first-class
father, first-class husband, and first-class son—three stages. Mrs. Wax: She must become dependent on her son because her
husband would ideally become a sannyasi. Is that...? Prabhupada: Yes. You will find that Kapiladeva is
instructing mother. That picture you can show her. Third Canto? You see
the picture in the cover? The first-class son is instructing mother.
Her husband has taken sannyasa and gone away. The son,
first-class son, is instructing mother. That is the book. You will find
full instruction to the mother. You can read one of the passages. You
can read, Nitai, what He is instructing to His mother. The mother is
questioning, and son is answering. Nitai: Sri bhagavan uvacha... Prabhupada: The mother first of all inquired? No. Nitai: Uh, you want me to start there. Prabhupada: Devahuti? The mother's name is Devahuti. And
the son is celebrated as "son of Devahuti." The son is famous with the
mother's name. And mother is taking instruction from the son. This is
ideal society. Nitai:
"Devahuti said: I am very sick of the disturbance of my material
senses, for because of this sense disturbance, my Lord, I have fallen
into the abyss of ignorance."
Tasya tvam tamaso 'ndhasya...
Prabhupada:
There is no purport of Devahuti? Nitai:
"Here
the word asad-indriya-tarshanat is significant. Asat
means 'impermanent,' 'temporary,' and indriya means 'senses.' Thus
asad-indriya-tarñaëät means 'from being agitated by
the temporarily manifest senses of the material body.' We are evolving
through different statuses of material bodily existence sometimes in a
human body, sometimes in an animal body—and therefore the engagements
of our material senses are also changing. Anything which changes is
called temporary, or asat. We should know that beyond these temporary
senses are our permanent senses, which are now covered by the material
body. The permanent senses, being contaminated by matter, are not
acting properly. Devotional service, therefore, involves freeing the
senses from this contamination. When the contamination is completely
removed and the senses act in the purity of unalloyed
Kåñëa consciousness, then we have reached the
sad-indriya, or eternal sense activities. The eternal sensual
activities are called devotional service, whereas temporary sensual
activities are called sense gratification. Unless one becomes tired of
material sense gratification, there is no opportunity to hear
transcendental messages from a person like Kapila. Devahüti
expressed that she was tired. Now that her husband had left home, she
wanted to get relief by hearing the instructions of Lord Kapila."
Prabhupäda: So this full book is the answer and question between
mother and son. So, although she is mother, she has given birth to the
child, but she has become now dependent on this child for good
instruction. This is ideal society."
Mrs. Wax:
Thank you for answering my questions. Prabhupada: Hare Krishna. [to disciples] Give them prasadam.
Hare Krishna. Guest (Indian man): How do you advise Indians who are here
and who have fallen to some extent in the materialistic world? They did
not leave... Basically, they left their homes, most of them, to educate
themselves. When they came here, they educated themselves, and they
don't want to go back. Basically, they have fallen into the
materialistic world. What advice you render them so that they get out
of these clutches and go back and serve here or in the country but they
should be devotional to the Almighty God? Prabhupada: So there is no question of here and there. You
can become advanced in spiritual life anywhere if you follow the
principles. That we are teaching. We are opening centers all over the
world. You take the advantage of our teaching, our books, our center.
Then it will be all right. They are following, these Europeans and
American boys. They are young boys. They are giving up meat-eating. Do
you give up meat-eating? Why Indians, you should learn meat-eating?
They are giving up, and you are learning to eat meat. This is the
lesson, that these foreigners, they were accustomed to eat meat from
the childhood, they are giving up, and you are eating meat. This is the
instruction. Indians are drinking. They are giving up drinking. The
lessons are already there. There is no question why. The lessons are
already there, books are already there, the centers are already there.
You learn and make your life purified. Where is the difficulty? There
is no difficulty. When we say, "No meat-eating," it is meant for
everyone. Anyone who wants to become first-class man, it is necessary
for him. And there is no question of Indian, European, American. You
are committing so many sinful lives, and you want to become happy—that
is not possible. Now this paper Time is puzzled: "Crime
and What to Do?" But they do not know... [break] Guest: ...here in America they are fighting to become
independent. And also abortion. They are fighting that the abortion
should be there. Now this your message, is conveyed through the
reporters and I would like the reporter to assess the reaction from the
masses here, whether Gurukula is sponsoring for the women liberation
and equal rights... Prabhupada: No, no, you are asking solution of the
question who is already in darkness. You should take instruction from Bhagavad-gita.
You are asking women who are supposed to be dependent, and you are
asking question from them. To answer will not be from them. The answer,
the standard answer, you have to take from the book of knowledge,
Bhagavad-gita. Then the answer will be perfect. Jayatirtha: But if the people complain that we send our
children to Gurukula at five, but their children they kill before they
have a chance to be born. And they say that we are inhuman. Prabhupada: Hmm? Jayatirtha: The people in general, they say that we are
inhuman because we send our children at five to Gurukula. But they do
not think that they are killing their own children before they have a
chance to be born. Prabhupada: Yes, therefore we say there is no first-class
men to guide. They are killing child within the womb. They are not
given chance to come out and see the light. And we are putting children
at five, so we are criminal. They are denying the right of birth. So
these things are happening because there is no first-class brain. Yes? Mr. Wax: In your many visits around the world do you see a
desire among many men to try to improve, to become first-class men? Prabhupada: Yes, in your country there are so many. Mr. Wax: Is there a great desire around the world? We here
are a small group. Prabhupada: Everywhere, everywhere. In Africa also. Mr. Wax: There's hope for our world today? Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Otherwise, why we are trying unless
there is hope? We are not hopeless. If you train... If you can train a
monkey to dance according to your will, why not human being? You can
train even a tiger in the circus; he will act as you desire. It is the
question of training. If the animal can be trained, why not a human
being? You must know how to train. That knowledge is lacking, how to
train. That we are giving, this Krishna consciousness movement. Guest (Indian man): Swamiji, I'll ask one last question.
What advice do you give to a man of family? I am taking my case, I have
four children, and they are, their ages, between six and thirteen. I
have to see that they grow up nice, I have to see that they educate
themself so that they are as according to you... I don't know. I don't
call myself first-class, second-class, third-class. As you said, there
are no first-class men, second-class men. But then how, apart from
making them first class that they should follow the religious...? Prabhupada: No, no, if you become first-class, and they
will follow you. You remain last-class, and how you can train your
first-class? [laughter] In the shastra it is said, "Unless
you can create first-class man, don't beget children." Pita na
sa
syaj janani na sa syad gurur na sa syat, na mochayed
yah samupeta-mrityum. It is the duty of the father to raise
his children first-class. Otherwise he should not become a father. That
is contraceptive. Just like Vasudeva and Devaki. Formerly they
were Vasus and they were asked by Brahma to create progeny. So the
husband and wife, they practiced austerities very severely. So then God
appeared before them: "What do you want?" And they said that "We can
enter into family life provided You become our son." No, "If we get a
son like you." Then God said, "Where is second person like Me? So I
shall become your son." Then, in next life, Devaki got
Krishna as his child. So every father and mother should
take this vow, that "Unless our children become first-class, we don't
want children." This is ideal. What is the use of begetting cats and
dogs? You must have first-class children. That requires tapasya.
So at
least we should follow the standard, how to raise our children to
become first-class. There is no current? You can get on the light. At
the present moment, people cannot understand even that there is life
after death. Most people. There is life after death—they cannot
understand, even big, big professors, big, big learned scholars.
Everyone is thinking, "This body is accidental and when the body will
be finished, everything is finished." That is the general
understanding. But Bhagavad-gita, you read. It is said, na
hanyate hanyamane sharire: [Bhagavad-gita 2.20]
"After the
destruction of the body, the soul is not destroyed." Vasamsi
jirnani yatha
vihaya navani anyani grihnati
aparani: [Bhagavad-gita 2.22] "Just like when our
dress becomes old
enough not to be used, then we accept another dress, similarly, when
this body is old enough, not workable, then we accept another body."
These things are there. But who is trying to understand it? At least
all our Indians, those who are born in India, wherefrom Bhagavad-gita
has come out, at least they should
understand. But they are not understanding. They are interpreting Bhagavad-gita
in their own way. This is the
difficulty.
Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gita as it is, and
people are taking advantage of that. So first-class man, he knows what
is Bhagavad-gita and tries to apply the teachings in
practical life. Then you become first-class. In the Bhagavad-gita
you will find first-class eating,
first-class
life, second-class eating, second-class life, third-class... Everything
is there. So people should be trained up. Economic question? That is
explained in the Bhagavad-gita, annad bhavanti
bhutani [Bhagavad-gita 3.14]. You produce food
grain, anna,
sufficiently. So there is immense land still. Say, in America, so much
land is without any utilization, in Africa, in Australia. They are not
being properly utilized. People are complaining, "Overpopulation." Now
countries which are overpopulated, they are not allowed to utilize the
vacant land, neither people are being trained how to produce food
grain. They are being trained up, technology, to produce motor tire.
And nobody is interested to produce food grain. So without taking food
grains, they are killing animals, and they are eating, short cut. They
do not know killing of animals is sinful activity. This is the... Man
is advanced; we can grow food. This killing of animals is for the
non-civilized society. They cannot... They do not know how to grow
food. They were killing animals. When man is advanced in his knowledge
and education, why they should kill? Especially in America, we see so
many nice foodstuffs. Fruits, grains, milk. And from milk, you can get
hundreds of nice preparations, all nutritious. In our New Vrindaban we
are doing that—rabri, pera, burfi. The other farmers are
surprised that
from milk such nice preparation can be prepared. So instead of teaching
them—you Indian, you know how to utilize milk and prepare so many nice
preparation,—you are learning how to eat meat. Why? So if you forget
your culture and if you become victimized, that is your fault. You
should teach them how to utilize milk. And if the cows are kept
jubilant, they will deliver double milk. They know, "We shall be
killed." They are always depressed. Therefore milk is not properly
supplied. So that is stated in the Bhagavad..., er, Srimad-Bhagavatam,
that during Maharaja
Yudhisthira's time the cows were so jubilant that milk was dropping
from the milkbags, so much so that the pasturing grounds became muddy
with milk. So if you keep... Killing of cows means utilizing the blood
in different form. The milk is also another transformation of the
blood. So if you take milk sufficiently and prepare nice foodstuff,
then it is equally beneficial like the meat from health point of view.
But one must know the..., learn that keep the cow living; at the same
time be benefited by the blood. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gita
you will find this word krishi-go-rakshya. Go-rakshya.
This animal has
to be protected. Not other animals it is mentioned. And go,
cow. So
those who are meat-eaters, they can eat nonimportant animals. But cows
should be given protection. This is the instruction. But in the western
country the cows are specially being killed. Now the reaction is war,
crime, and they are now repentant. And they will have to repent more
and more. Jayatirtha: So the wars and the crime are a direct result
of the
cow slaughter.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. It is a wholesale reaction. All
these crises are taking place. They are killing their own child. Own
child means that child is criminal; therefore it is being killed within
the womb. Nature will take action. Prakriteh
kriyamanani gunaih karmani
sarvashah [Bhagavad-gita 3.27]. You are not
independent. So if you
work independently, then you will have to suffer. The law of nature is
there. You cannot avoid it. If you infect some disease, you must suffer
from the disease. You cannot avoid it. This is the law of nature. Law
of nature is working in such a way that as you are infecting... Karanam
guna-sangah asya
sad-asad-janma-yonishu. Find out this verse. Why there are
varieties of life. One is tree, one is cat, one is dog, one is human
being, one is blind, one is lame, one is educated, one is foolish—why?
Why the difference, varieties? And that is answered in the Bhagavad-gita,
karanam
guna-sango 'sya: "As you are infecting the modes of
material nature, you are getting your birth." Otherwise, how you can
explain by nature there are so many varieties of life, 8,400,000
species of life? Jayatirtha: You mentioned several times that those persons
who
are guilty of abortion, then they also enter a womb, but they never
leave it alive. They're also killed within the womb. Prabhupada: Yes. That means... That child is killed means
it must
take another birth. Again in the womb it will be killed. Again another
womb. This is going on. Mudha janmani janmani [Bhagavad-gita
16.20].
It is stated in the Bhagavad-gita, "Birth after birth
they
will be put into the darkness of life." Nitai:
"The living entity in material nature thus follows the ways of life,
enjoying the three modes of nature. This is due to his association with
that material nature. Thus he meets with good and evil amongst various
species."
Prabhupada:
Purport. Nitai:
"This
verse is very important for an understanding of how
the living entities transmigrate from one body to another. It is
explained in the Second Chapter that the living entity is
transmigrating from one body to another just as one changes dress. This
change of dress is due to his attachment to material existence. As long
as he is captivated by this false manifestation, he has to continue
transmigrating from one body to another. Due to his desire to lord it
over material nature, he is put into such undesirable circumstances.
Under the influence of material desire, the entity is born sometimes as
a demigod, sometimes as a man, sometimes as a beast, as a bird, as a
worm, as an aquatic, as a saintly man, as a bug. This is going on. And
in all cases the living entity thinks himself to be the master of his
circumstances, yet he is under the influence of material nature. How he
is put into such different bodies is explained here. It is due to
association with the different modes of nature. One has to rise,
therefore, above the three material modes and become situated in the
transcendental position. That is called Krishna
consciousness. Unless one is situated in Krishna
consciousness, his material consciousness will oblige him to transfer
from one body to another because he has material desires since time
immemorial. But he has to change that conception. That change can be
effected only by hearing from authoritative sources. The best example
is here: Arjuna is hearing the science of God from
Krishna. The living entity, if he submits to this
hearing process, will lose his long-cherished desire to dominate the
material nature, and gradually and proportionately, as he reduces his
long desire to dominate, he comes to enjoy spiritual happiness."
Prabhupada:
They are trying to dominate the material nature, the
so-called scientists. But they do not know that they are under the
domination of material nature. They are forgetting that. If you are
more powerful, if you are dominating me, how I can dominate you? That
they do not know, that we are under the domination of material nature. Janma-mrityu-jara-vyadhi
[Bhagavad-gita
13.9]. The domination is
manifest by four things: birth, death, old age, and disease. I cannot
dominate my birth, death, old age, and disease and I am trying to
dominate over nature. Just foolishness. Big, big scientist, did he
dominate over death, Professor Einstein? Did not he die? Why he could
not find out any means that he will not die? What is the meaning of the
science? If you are dominated by the laws of material nature, how you
are thinking that you shall dominate over material nature? When death
comes can you dominate? "No, no, I am scientist. Just wait." No, you
must die immediately. So where is your domination? You are dominated by
material nature. That is the mistake of the present society, that
everyone is being dominated by the material nature and the so-called
scientist is trying to dominate over material nature. How it is
possible? Therefore it is said,
daivi
hy esha gunamayi
mama maya
duratyaya
mam eva ya prapadyante
mayam
etam taranti te [Bhagavad-gita 7.14]
Find out this
verse. [aside:] Just wait. [gets up and leaves room]
[break] So you have read that verse, daivi hy
esha gunamayi? Nitai: No.
daivi
hy esha gunamayi
mama maya
duratyaya
mam eva ye prapadyante
mayam
etam taranti te [Bhagavad-gita 7.14]
"This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material
nature, is difficult to overcome. But those who have surrendered unto
Me can easily cross beyond it."
Prabhupada:
Purport. Nitai:
"The
Supreme Personality of Godhead has innumerable
energies, and all these energies are divine. Although the living
entities are part of His energies and are therefore divine, due to
contact with material energy, their original superior power is covered.
Being thus covered by material energy, one cannot possibly overcome its
influence. As previously stated, both the material and spiritual
natures, being emanations from the Supreme Personality of Godhead, are
eternal. The living entities belong to the eternal superior nature of
the Lord, but due to contamination by the inferior nature, matter,
their illusion is also eternal. The conditioned soul is therefore
called nitya-baddha, or eternally conditioned. No one can trace
out the
history of his becoming conditioned at a certain date in material
history. Consequently, his release from the clutches of material nature
is very difficult, even though that material nature is an inferior
energy, because material energy is ultimately conducted by the supreme
will, which the living entity cannot overcome. Inferior material nature
is defined herein as divine nature due to its divine connection and
movement by the divine will. Being conducted by divine will, material
nature, although inferior, acts so wonderfully in the construction and
destruction of the cosmic manifestation. The Vedas
confirm this as
follows:
mayam tu prakritim vidyan
mayinam tu maheshvaram.
"Although maya [illusion] is false or temporary, the
background of maya is the supreme magician, the Personality
of Godhead, who is Maheshvara, the supreme controller."
Another meaning of guna is rope; it is to be understood that
the
conditioned soul is tightly tied by the ropes of illusion. A man bound
by the hands and feet cannot free himself—he must be helped by a person
who is unbound. Because the bound cannot help the bound, the rescuer
must be liberated. Therefore, only Lord Krishna, or His
bona fide representative the spiritual master, can release the
conditioned soul. Without such superior help, one cannot be freed from
the bondage of material nature. Devotional service, or
Krishna consciousness, can help one gain such release.
Krishna, being the Lord of illusory energy, can order
this insurmountable energy to release the conditioned soul. He orders
this release out of His causeless mercy on the surrendered soul and out
of His paternal affection for the living entity who is originally a
beloved son of the Lord. Therefore surrender unto the lotus feet of the
Lord is the only means to get free from the clutches of the stringent
material nature.
The words mam eva are also significant. Mam means unto
Krishna (Vishnu) only, and not Brahma
or Shiva. Although Brahma and Shiva are greatly
elevated and are almost on the level of Vishnu, it is not
possible for such incarnations of rajo-guna (passion) and tamo-guna
(ignorance) to release the conditioned soul
from the
clutches of maya. In other words, both Brahma and Shiva are
also under the influence of maya. Only
Vishnu is the master of maya; therefore He can
alone give release to the conditioned soul. The Vedas
confirm this in
the phrase tvam eva viditva or "Freedom is possible only
by
understanding Krishna." Even Lord Shiva affirms
that liberation can be achieved only by the mercy of Vishnu.
Lord Shiva says:
mukti-pradata sarvesham vishnur
eva na samshayah.
"There is no doubt that Vishnu is the deliverer of
liberation for everyone."
Prabhupada:
So everything is explained. If anyone wants to take
advantage of it, he can take. We have got fifty books like this. Those
who are interested in the science and philosophy of
Krishna consciousness, they can read all these books.
Otherwise, one can chant Hare Krishna, That will also
help. The human civilization means everyone shall try to become
first-class man. This is human civilization, not to remain like
animals. That attempt is lacking now. Here the civilization is that the
dog is jumping or running, and human being is running in a motor car,
and he is thinking he is more civilized than the dog. But the business
is running. That's all. The dog is having sex on the street, and the
human being is having sex in a very nice decorated apartment and
therefore he is civilized. But the business is the same. The dog is
eating on the floor and the human being is eating in a very nice table,
nice dish, and therefore he is civilized. But the business is eating.
The dog is trying to defend itself by barking or by teeth and jaws, and
the human being is trying to defend the society by atom bomb, but the
business is defense. Therefore shastra says, ahara-nidra-bhaya-maithunam
cha samanyam etat
pashubhir naranam: "This business of eating,
sleeping, mating, and defending is common to the animal and to the
man." The man, if he does not understand what he is, why he is
suffering this material tribulations, then he remains cats and dogs.
The cats and dogs, they cannot question, but human being can question.
And he should take the answer from these books of knowledge. That is
human life. Otherwise, so far eating, sleeping, sex and defense, that
is common for the dogs and man. There is no difference. He is doing in
his own way, we are doing in our own way, but the business is the same.
So human being must go above these four businesses, the fifth business.
The fifth business is how to understand God. Otherwise, the bodily four
businesses, that is common. Even an ant, it is also eating. It is going
from this place to that place: "Where is a grain of sugar?" And we are
also running in car this way and that way: "Where is eating?" The hog
is also running: "Where is stool? Where is stool?" So... [child
makes sounds] Is he chanting mantra? That small... Jayatirtha: Yes, he's chanting nicely. Prabhupada: Thank you, Hare Krishna. Just see. He
is being trained up. Just see how he is taking lesson. So it is
possible. So from childhood, if he is trained up, then in future he
will become first-class man. Jayatirtha: Sometimes people complain that we don't give
our
children any right of free choice, that we train them in our own way. Prabhupada: This is nonsense, to give free choice to the
child.
This is nonsense. Child should be protected. That is intelligence. That
is the wrong type of consciousness. According to Vedic civilization, a
child, a woman, a brahmana, a cow, and an old man they should
be given protection, not freedom, but protection. Jayatirtha: At the same time in that Time
article it discussed
that about fifty percent of the crime was done by children under
eighteen and people are afraid even to go to the schools. Prabhupada: Yes. They are not educated properly. Not only
that
they have given photograph: the children take small..., yes, weapon,
knife. And examination is held under police vigilance. This is the
education. Mrs. Wax: Some of us are parents of devotees and when you
came to
America nine years ago, eight years ago... Prabhupada: Yes. Mrs. Wax: ...some young people were attracted to the
message and
responded and joined Krishna consciousness. Is there a
special reason? What explanation do you have why some...? Prabhupada: Yes. The special reason was... That was
published in
one paper, Voice East. What is that? Devotees: Village Voice. Prabhupada: Yes. They wrote a very big article that "We
thought
God is dead but Swamiji has brought God in his kirtana." They
wrote this article. They found God's presence in Hare
Krishna mantra. This Brahmananda, he was attracted
first. Mrs. Wax: The first one? Brahmänanda: One of the first ones. Mrs. Wax: Really? Prabhupada: His photo was published in New York
Times, dancing. He
and another boy... [laughter] Yes. He and another boy,
Acyutananda—he is now in India; he is also sannyasi—these two
boys were dancing hand to hand, and
this
was published in New York Times. Mrs. Wax: What I'm asking is why could he understand? Prabhupada: Then you ask him how, he'll reply. [laughter] Mrs. Wax: Why did you? Prabhupada: Why he became attracted and began to dance. He
is
present here. I did not ask him to come and dance. Brahmananda: Well, I was just... I cannot say exactly why.
I was
searching, however. I was looking for something better than what I was
doing. Prabhupada: His father predicted that "This boy will
become a
pious man. He is not going to take up my business." [laughter] His
father is a very big, rich man running on factories. But he was
disappointed that "This, my child, will not be a factory worker." Is it
not? You tell. Brahmananda: Yes. Actually we also say that it is
Prabhupada's grace that he came here and he actually delivered a
process which is nothing of his own manufacture. This chanting of Hare
Krishna is a bona fide transcendental process. And
Prabhupada has delivered it purely. So therefore it has great
effect. Although it seems that there are only a few of us who are
actually taking to this movement, we consider that we are
representative of the whole world. Actually this movement has now
spread all over the world. I myself have been in Africa, and the
movement is even taking effect there. So we see that our movement is
very important, and we have members from practically every country,
every religion, every kind of social group in the world. Therefore we
see a great scope for this movement. And at the present moment we are
not getting so much help from governments, authorities, so many groups
that could offer especially financial help. We're having to do
everything by ourselves. So therefore our facilities are limited. If we
had more facility, certainly this movement would grow far more than it
is now. Prabhupada: Upendra. You can take it. So try to understand
this
movement and write more and more articles and educate your countrymen.
That will be very nice. Mrs. Wax: [indistinct] Prabhupada: Yes. Mrs. Wax: My son is educating me. That's what you said. Prabhupada: That's nice. Mrs. Wax: You said that's the proper... Prabhupada: Yes, son should be so nicely educated that he
can
teach his mother also. That is nice. Some of the parents of my
disciples, they come to congratulate, give me thanks. And some of them
to curse me [laughter], that "You have spoiled our children."
[laughing] Brahmananda's mother is very angry. [laughter] Mrs. Wax: She's very angry. Brahmananda: She has given myself and also my brother. Mrs. Wax: Oh, your brother too. Brahmananda: Yes. Prabhupada: When she came to see me I asked, "Mrs. Bruce,
you have
got money. Give me some money." So she became angry: "I have given my
two sons." [laughter] Mrs. Wax: Your brother joined after you. Brahmananda: Just a month after. Mrs. Wax: Are there any more? Brahmananda: One sister. She's never... Mrs. Wax: Never walked out. [laughter] Jayatirtha: The parents of one devotee came to the temple
in Los
Angeles and were picketing with signs in front of the building. Mrs. Wax: Oh, really. Jayatirtha: They were accusing us of kidnapping their
daughter.
When I spoke with them I said, "Before your daughter came to our
movement she was taking drugs and having sex life even though she was
at the early age and so many nonsense things. But now she's not doing
those things." They said, "I'd rather she be doing those things than
joining your movement." So some people they can't appreciate. Mrs. Wax: I understand Mr. Patrick kidnapped
Lakshmi-narayana. Is he all right? Jayatirtha: Lakshmi-narayana, yes he
escaped. Prabhupada: Eh? Jayatirtha: There's this one fellow, Mr. Ted Patrick. He
goes
and he kidnaps the devotees. The parents pay him $1,000 up to
$25,000... Prabhupada: Accha. Jayatirtha: ...depending on how wealthy they are. He
kidnaps
them and tries to brainwash them that this Krishna
consciousness is not good. Devotee: He calls it deprogramming. He says... He tries to
deprogram
the devotees that we have simply been hypnotized by chanting. So he has
to snap us out of it by deprogramming. And he uses very severe
techniques, very harsh. Prabhupada: And the parents are inducing him. Jayatirtha: Yes. Prabhupada: Just see. Brahmananda: All over America. Jayatirtha: They tear off the neckbeads and tear up your
pictures in front of the devotees, try to force them to eat meat, so
many things. Devotee: Blasphemy. Jayatirtha: Recently we got a conviction against him. He
got six
months in prison. In Los Angeles we got to convict him for this kind of
activity. So he is being stopped. Guest (Indian man): Also he can't come to Canada any more,
can't cross
the border. Jayatirtha: Oh, he's been barred. Guest: He is barred from coming to Canada. Brahmananda: He was put into the Denver county jail also
when we
were in Denver. He's out on bail now. Mrs. Wax: Not only kidnapping devotees,
Krishna
devotees, but all religious movements. He can't stand them. Prabhupada: And the parents are taking help from him. Jayatirtha: Yes. Prabhupaa: This is the difficulty. Mrs. Wax: I've noticed that there are different dates
given to when the Vedas began, the beginnings of the Vedas.
Some historians and
authorities say one thing and I've seen many different figures. What is
the accurate time they were spoken. Prabhupada: If you can find out what is the accurate time
of this
cosmic creation, then you will find the date of Vedas.
Can you find out
when it was created? Have you got any statistics? Mrs. Wax: No, none. I was hoping you did. [laughs] Mr. Wax: How old is the Hare Krishna chant? Prabhupada: As old as this creation. Mr. Wax: [indistinct] ...if you get any statistics, let me
know. Brahmananda: It shows the limitation of our scientific
knowledge
that we don't even know the accurate date of the cosmic manifestation. Prabhupada: So far Krishna consciousness is
concerned, you can take it: since five thousand years, when
Krishna was present, He gave this instruction. But it
existed before Krishna's instruction. About forty
millions of years ago He gave this instruction to the sun-god. That is
mentioned in the Bhagavad-gita:
So if we take up
the statement of Bhagavad-gita, then five
thousand years ago this was spoken for the second time, and first time
it was spoken forty millions of years ago. Therefore it is permanent,
not that something new. It is existing eternally. Sometimes we are
missing, and sometimes we are accepting, but it is existing eternally.
You cannot trace out the history. Our calculation of history means we
are trying to make the eternal time relatively limited with our life.
But the time is eternal. We are changing our forms of life many, many
million times, but the time is there. So the calculation of past,
present, future is relative according to the duration of my life. An
ant's past, present, future is not the same past, present, future as of
human being. The past, present, future is relative according to the
duration of life and body. So Brahma's past, present, future and our
past and present, future is not the same. So time is eternal, and past,
present, future is calculation of relative knowledge. That is not
correct. Jayatirtha: Like the frog in the well. Prabhupada: Yes. A frog in the well is thinking, "This is
the
limit of water." [laughter] And if you say there is Atlantic Ocean, he
cannot understand it. He will think, "What is that?" "Oh, it is very
big." "How much? Is it three feet? It is four feet?" "No, no, very
big." "Five feet?" "No, no, still..." "Six feet?" So he is calculating
in that way, "Four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten," but Atlantic
ocean is beyond his conception. So these are all Dr. Frog's philosophy.
Yes. And the so-called philosophers, they are Dr. Frog. [laughter] We
consider them as Dr. Frog. Some of my students who are doctors, they
are now trying to give up their job because they are understanding this
is all false knowledge. Yes. Devotee: Srila Prabhupada, because you are
presenting this knowledge so purely, then it's possible for the common
man to understand this knowledge without chanting and following the
four regulative principles. Prabhupada: That is not possible. That is not possible.
Cheto-darpana-marjanam [Chaitanya-charitamrita
Antya 20.12]. You have to cleanse
the mirror of your consciousness, then the reflection will be properly
viewed. If you keep it dirty, then it is not possible. Therefore we
require first-class men to understand this philosophy, not the
fourth-class man. If you keep him fourth-class man, it is not possible. Devotee (2): We are giving these books to so many common
men. Then the
books will attract them to perhaps chanting and following the
regulative principles. Prabhupada: Yes, if they read. Even if they touch. That is
the
difference between this book and ordinary book. Even they touch and
they read one line and says, "Oh, it is very nice," he makes a step
forward. If he simply says this word, "Oh, it is very nice," that is
sufficient to bring him. Therefore I am trying to push. He has paid
some money. He will then say, "What these nonsense have written. Let me
see." [laughter] And if he sees and says, "Oh, it is very nice," then
the beginning is immediately. Therefore we are trying to push. At least
let him say, "It is very nice." The Kartikeya's mother, the practical
experience... The Kartikeya, when he used to go to see his mother, the
mother was going to dance, ball dance, and she would not speak: "All
right, sit down. I am coming." She used to go out. The same mother
gradually, in the association of her son, became
Krishna conscious. So at the time of death she asked
Kartikeya, "Is your Krishna here?" and she died
immediately. This is the effect. So anta-kale, she remembered
Krishna, so her life was successful. She inquired like
this, "Is your Krishna here?" And immediately died. So
she got the benefit of her son's Krishna consciousness.
You can ask Kartikeya also. She said that. Jayatirtha: Yes, he told me that story. Prabhupada: Yes. So all the mothers of my disciples, they
will get
salvation because she has got nice son like... Jayatirtha: All the mothers will get salvation. Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Mrs. Wax: Oh, good. [laughter] Devotee (3): What about the fathers. Prabhupada: Father also. Both the father and mother.
Because they
are father and mother of a Vaishnava devotee, so they will
be taken special care. You'll find from the Prahlada
Maharaja's description. Even a father like
Hiranyakashipu, he got salvation because Prahlada was
son. Devotee: Srila Prabhupada, it seems strange that so
many parents who are engaged in meat-eating and illicit sex and
intoxication and gambling, could have a son who would become a
Vaishnava. Prabhupada: Therefore they will get the advantage of the
son.
Somehow or other, they have produced a son, Vaishnava, so
the son's activities will react upon the life of the parents. Because
naturally the sons think of the father and mother, that is beneficial
for them. However one may be renounced, he cannot get rid of family
affection. That is natural. So the Vaishnava son sometimes
thinks of the father and mother. So they are getting the benefit. Devotee: So sometimes the attachment is beneficial, then? Prabhupada: Yes. What is this Krishna
consciousness movement? We are trying to be attached with
Krishna. This is our movement. Instead of having
attachment with this whole material world, we are turning to transfer
the attachment to Krishna. Find out this verse,
"Now hear, O son of Pritha, Arjuna, how by practicing yoga in
full consciousness of Me, with mind attached to Me, you can know Me in
full..."
Prabhupada:
"With mind attached to Me." This
Krishna consciousness movement means to keep the mind
attached to Krishna. That is success. That yoga we are
practicing, how to keep the mind attached to Krishna.
Then it is successful. Our mind is attached to something. Without
attachment, mind cannot be free even for a moment. So the bhakti-yoga
means how to transfer the attachment of mind to
Krishna, that's all. That is Krishna
consciousness. You are working, you are rendering your service without
any charges, without any profit—why? Because your mind has been
attached to Krishna. Otherwise what business you have
got to work for Krishna consciousness movement without
any remuneration? You are all American boys. You are qualified. You can
earn thousands of dollars. But why you have given up? Because you are
attached to Krishna. Param
drishtva nivartate [Bhagavad-gita 2.59]. You have
found
better attachment; therefore you given up. So that is
Krishna consciousness. We are attached to so many
nonsense things. When we wind up all these attachments and concentrate
on Krishna, then life is perfect. That is wanted. We
are not going to sacrifice attachment. But we are trying to transfer
the attachment from matter to Krishna. Then our life is
successful. But that attachment is very rare.
manushyanam
sahasreshu
kashchid
yatati siddhayeya
tatam api siddhanam
kaschid
vetti mam tattvatah [Bhagavad-gita 7.3]
So our business
is, spiritual master's business is, how to help the
disciple to transfer the attachment. It is not that we are creating an,
it, artificially, no. The attachment quality is there. But it is being
mixed up with material things. And if you purify this material
contamination, then the attachment become pure, and that is
Krishna consciousness. Just like the water falls from
the sky. It is distilled water. And as soon as it is in touch with the
ground it becomes muddy, dirty. Again that water, if you distill, again
it becomes distilled water, as good as the rain water, original.
Therefore bhakti means sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam [Chaitanya-charitamrita
Madhya 19.170].
All the dirty things of designation should be cleansed.
Sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam tat-paratvena nirmalam. When the
mind is cleansed, nirmalam, without any dirty thing, then you can begin
bhakti immediately, Krishna conscious.
Hrishikena
hrishikesha-sevanam bhaktir uchyate [Chaitanya-charitamrita
Madhya 19.170]. So bhakti means cleansing process. Originally,
distilled water from the sky, in touch with the ground, it is muddy.
You filter it or distill it; it becomes original. The consciousness is
there, but it has become muddy. You cleanse it; it is
Krishna consciousness. Therefore we say, "Don't do
this. Don't do this." Don't mix again muddy things. It has already
become muddy. Your business to cleanse it, and again if you make it
muddy with addition of other nonsense things, then it will be delayed.
When you ignite fire, you require dry wood. But if you ignite fire, at
the same time pour water, then how it will burn? Don't pour water.
Therefore we have so many "don'ts." "Don'ts" means that you are burning
the fire. Go on. Don't add water. And that is "don't." If you ignite
fire, at the same time add water, then how it will burn? Water is the
counter-ingredient of fire. If you want to extinguish fire, then add
water. But if you want to prolong the fire burning, then you should not
add water. So this material enjoyment, illicit sex, intoxication,
meat-eating, gambling, one should be free from these water-like things
while you are in the fire of spiritual consciousness. Don't bring these
things. You cannot go on burning the fire, at the same time adding
water. Then it will be useless waste of time. Anartha upashamam.
Anartha upashamam sakshad bhakti-yogam. Bhakti-yogam
means anartha, unwanted things, upashamam,
subsiding. This is anartha. Just like we don't eat meat. Are we
dying
for want of meat? But they have taken it that without eating meat they
will die. This is nonsense. And they are maintaining so many
slaughterhouses, committing sinful life, only for misunderstanding.
They do not see that "Here are some persons. They do not eat meat. They
look very bright-faced. Why should I eat meat?" Anartha,
unnecessarily,
simply for the taste of the tongue, they are committing so much sinful
activities. So just we are teaching, "Just control your tongue." That
is called shamah damah." Because the tongue wants
something, I have to eat, give it—that is not human civilization. If I
control my tongue-tongue wants this thing; I say, "No, not this thing;
you take this thing,"—then you are master. You are master of the
senses. Otherwise you are servant of the senses. Because some of my
senses want something... That is natural. But if I can control: "No,
this not. This," that is called shamah, damah. And
if I become victim of the dictation of the senses, then I cannot make
progress in my spiritual life; I am third-class, fourth-class man. Mind
wants to steal something. If you can control, "No, why stealing?" Then
you are master. [end]
