Krishna's Prescription for Good Governance

Founder-Acharya of the world-wide Hare Krishna Movement, Brahma Sampradaya Acharya

Army Times, November 4, 2006 - Time for Rumsfeld to Go

“So long as our government requires the backing of an aroused and informed public opinion ... it is necessary to tell the hard bruising truth.” That statement was written by Pulitzer Prize-winning war correspondent Marguerite Higgins more than a half-century ago during the Korean War.

But until recently, the “hard bruising” truth about the Iraq war has been difficult to come by from leaders in Washington.

One rosy reassurance after another has been handed down by President Bush, Vice President Cheney and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld: “mission accomplished,” the insurgency is “in its last throes,” and “back off,” we know what we’re doing, are a few choice examples.

Military leaders generally toed the line, although a few retired generals eventually spoke out from the safety of the sidelines, inciting criticism equally from anti-war types, who thought they should have spoken out while still in uniform, and pro-war foes, who thought the generals should have kept their critiques behind closed doors.

Now, however, a new chorus of criticism is beginning to resonate. Active-duty military leaders are starting to voice misgivings about the war’s planning, execution and dimming prospects for success. go to story

Unqualified for the job, unqualified to vote

Model for Human Society

The historical perspective by HANSADUTTA DAS

The standard for human thought and action in every field, whether government, military and politics, health, mathematics, agriculture, astronomy, poetry, music, art, philosophy—practically every branch of knowledge and human endeavor—is the Vedas. Vedic culture, Vedic knowledge and Vedic religion are the foundation of human civilization, just looking at it from a historical perception. more

Prabhupada: ...If things are going nicely, people will be happy. They will not revolt. You have to keep the citizens satisfied in all respects. You must know the necessity how people are satisfied. You have to arrange the government in that way. Then there will be no revolution. Mass of people, if they are satisfied, they will not revolt. But they do not know the process. The "demoncracy," the common man is allowed to vote. He has no knowledge and he's voting. This is most condemned process. Chamara-bhangi, a sweeper, he is voted to become Minister of Defense. His business is to cleanse the street, and now he's voted to become because he has got number of votes. So many bhangis, they vote, "Yes, he is our leader. He should be Defense Minister." You have to do that. This is democracy. His business is to sweep, and he's voted a defense minister.

Hari-sauri: But in, say in America, they argue that everybody's educated now. In America...

Prabhupada: What educated? Educated means hippies. That's all. This is their education. They do not know what is meant by education. Education... University student was informed that "Next birth you may become a dog," so he said, "What is the wrong there?" This is education. Is that education, that he agrees to become a dog very happily? There is no education. Simply waste of time.

Satsvarupa: But at least if there is extreme exploitation by a king or dictator it can't be changed. But the people...

Prabhupada: There cannot be exploitation if things are made in order. Just like kshatriya[1] should be trained up as kshatriya. Then he is king. Not that a bhangi by vote becomes a king. This is education.

shauryam tejo dhritir dakshyam
yuddhe chapy apalayanam
danam ishvara-bhavash cha
kshatram karma svabhava-jam

[Bhagavad-gita 18.43]: "Heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity and leadership are the natural qualities of work for the kshatriyas."] He must be very powerful, very strong, strongly built. You have seen the picture—Ramachandra? Sturdy body. You see. Lakshmana. Because kshatriya. They should be trained up as kshatriya.

Therefore the varnashrama[2] college is required to train people who is able to become a brahmana, who is able to become a kshatriya, who is able to become... In this way division must be. And according to the quality and work there must be division for cooperation. There is a big scheme. They have lost. They do not know. All bhangis, chamara, shudras, they are simply given vote. That's all. Where is the training?

Hari-sauri: But what is the use of having big strong body if now they're using airplanes and tanks and guns?

Prabhupada: That is your useless waste of time. Why? Therefore the war does not stop, unnecessary war, and such a big war, Kurukshetra [3], in eighteen days it is finished. This is decision. And this is going on: continually war, strain, politics, diplomacy, lecture, Parliament. There is no finishing of war. There is no finishing. It will go on. Just like same example: If you keep the dogs as dogs, they'll going on barking. It will never finish. So this is the civilization of dog work. It is not human civilization. Therefore it is going on. War is not stopped. Where is stop? War is stopped? No. Going on. And it will go on because they are dogs. You cannot stop their barking. There are so many things. If we follow the instruction of Bhagavad-gita, then whole world will be... This is a fact. Now, how to implement it, that is another thing. It is a fact.

Hari-sauri: Because even the yavanas and mlecchas [non-aryans, or people living outside the brahminical culture] were following the kshatriya system in Krishna's time. Just like Jarasandha. He had all the chivalrous respect of a kshatriya even though he was a demon. But nowadays everybody's... No one is...

Prabhupada: Everybody's shudra. Nobody's brahmana, nobody's...

Hari-sauri: No.

Prabhupada: Shudra is to be controlled only. They are never given to be freedom...That is best, to keep them under control...but give them sufficient food, sufficient cloth, not more than that. Then they will be satisfied.

Model for human society

Hari-sauri: If that's done then how will those who have some potential to be educated, how will we recognize them?

Prabhupada: Either educate them or control them. Give them facility of education. But now there is no education at all... So we are stressing on the point of education. You educate certain section as brahmana, certain section as kshatriya, certain section as vaishya. In that education we don't discriminate because he's coming of a shudra family. Take education. Be qualified. Then you talk. Not by votes.

Satsvarupa: Lord Chaitanya[4], when Ramananda Raya brought this up, He said it was not possible in this age to introduce this.

Prabhupada: Yes. Not... He did not say possible. Iha bahya. [From Chaitanya-charitamrita Madhya 8.59: "The Lord replied, 'This is external. You had better tell Me of some other means.'"] Chaitanya Mahaprabhu was interested only on the spiritual platform. He had no idea of material side. He rejected material side.

Satsvarupa: But don't we do that also?

Prabhupada: No. Our position is different. We are trying to implement Krishna consciousness in everything. And Chaitanya Mahaprabhu personally took sannyasa [renounced order of life]. He rejected completely material. Nishkinchana ["one who has nothing to do with this material world"]. But we are not going to be nishkinchana. We are trying to cement the troubled position of the [society at large]... That is also in the prescription of Bhagavad-gita. We are not rejecting the whole society. Chaitanya Mahaprabhu rejected everything, iha bahya. Rejected meaning, "I do not take much interest in this." Bahya. "It is external." He was simply interested in the internal, the spiritual. But our duty is that we shall arrange the external affairs also so nicely that one day they will come to the spiritual platform very easily, paving the way. And Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, personality like that, they have nothing to do with this material world. But we are preaching. We are preaching. Therefore we must pave the situation in such a way that gradually they will be promoted to the spiritual plane, [in] which [varnashram] is not required.

Satsvarupa: Varnashrama is not required.

Prabhupada: Not required. Chaitanya Mahaprabhu denied, "I am not brahmana, I am not kshatriya, I am not this, I am not this." He rejected. But in the Bhagavad-gita, the chatur-varnyam maya srishtam. [ [Bg. 4.13]: "According to the three modes of material nature and the work associated with them, the four divisions of human society are created by Me..."] So we are preaching Krishna consciousness. It must be done.

Hari-sauri: But in Chaitanya Mahaprabhu's practical preaching He only induced them to chant [the holy names of God, viz. Hare Krishna maha-mantra: Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare].

Prabhupada: That is not possible for ordinary man.

Hari-sauri: What, to simply induce people to chant?

Prabhupada: Hm?

Hari-sauri: He only introduced just the chanting.

Prabhupada: But who will chant? Who'll chant?

Satsvarupa: But if they won't chant, then neither will they train up in the varnashrama. That's the easiest.

Prabhupada: The chanting will be there, but you cannot expect that people will chant like Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. They cannot even chant sixteen rounds. [Sarcastically:] These rascals are going to be Chaitanya Mahaprabhu.

Satsvarupa: No. But if they at least will chant and take some prasada [food which has been offered to Krishna]...

Prabhupada: Chanting will go on. That is not stopped. But at the same time the varnashrama-dharma must be established to make the way easy.

Hari-sauri: Well, at least my own understanding was that the chanting was introduced in the age of Kali[5] because varnashram is not possible.

Prabhupada: Because it will cleanse the mind. Chanting will not stop.

Hari-sauri: So therefore the chanting was introduced to replace all of the systems of varnashram and like that.

Prabhupada: Yes, it can replace, but who is going to replace it? The... People are not so advanced. If you imitate Haridasa Thakura[6] to chant, it is not possible.

Satsvarupa: We tell them go on with your job but chant also.

Prabhupada: Yes. Thakaha apanara kaje [From song by Bhaktivinoda Thakura: "...Go on with your prescribed duty, and chant Hare Krishna."] Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Apanara kaja ki. Chaitanya Mahaprabhu recommended, sthane sthitah ["remaining in the varnashram-dharma"] And if they do not remain in the sthana, then the sahajiya's[7] chanting will come. Just like the sahajiyas also have got the beads and..., but they have got three dozen women. This kind of chanting will go on. Just like our [name withheld]. He was not fit for sannyasa but he was given sannyasa. And five women he was attached, and he disclosed.

Therefore varnashram-dharma is required. Simply show-bottle will not do. So the varnashram-dharma should be introduced all over the world, and...

Satsvarupa: Introduced starting with ISKCON community [International Society for Krishna Consciousness]?

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. brahmana, kshatriyas. There must be regular education.

Hari-sauri: But in our community, if the..., being as we're training up as Vaishnavas [devotees of the Supreme Lord Vishnu, or Krishna]...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hari-sauri: ...then how will we be able to make divisions in our society?

Prabhupada: Vaishnava is not so easy. The varnashram-dharma should be established to become a Vaishnava. It is not so easy to become Vaishnava.

Hari-sauri: No, it's not a cheap thing.

Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore this should be made. Vaishnava, to become Vaishnava, is not so easy. If Vaishnava, to become Vaishnava is so easy, why so many fall down? It is not easy. The sannyasa is for the highest qualified brahmana. And simply by dressing like a Vaishnava, that is... fall down.

Hari-sauri: So the varnashram system is like for the kanishthas, kanishtha- adhikari [neophytes]. [From Srimad-Bhagavatam 11.2.47, see below.]

Prabhupada: Kanishtha?

Hari-sauri: When one is only on the platform of neophyte.

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Kanishtha-adhikari, yes.

Hari-sauri: Varnashram system is beneficial.

Work according to qualities and qualifications

Prabhupada: Kanishtha-adhikari means he must be a brahmana. That is kanishtha-adhikari. The spiritual life, kanishtha-adhikari, means he must be a qualified brahmana. That is kanishtha. What is esteemed as very high position in the material world, brahmana, that is kanishtha-adhikari:

archayam eva haraye
pujam yah shraddhayehate
na tad-bhakteshu chanyeshu
sa bhaktah prakritah smritah

[SB 11.2.47: "A devotee who faithfully engages in the worship of the Deity in the temple but does not behave properly toward other devotees or people in general is called a prakrita-bhakta, a materialistic devotee, and is considered to be in the lowest position."] The brahmana means from the material stage gradually he is elevated to the spiritual stage. And below the brahmana there is no question of Vaishnava.

Hari-sauri: No question of?

Prabhupada: Vaishnavism.

shrinvatam sva-kathah krishnah
punya-shravana-kirtanah
hridy antah-stho hy abhadrani
vidhunoti suhrit satam [SB 1.2.17]

[SB 1.2.17: "Sri Krishna, the Personality of Godhead, who is the Paramatma [Supersoul] in everyone's heart and the benefactor of the truthful devotee, cleanses desire for material enjoyment from the heart of the devotee who has developed the urge to hear His messages, which are in themselves virtuous when properly heard and chanted."]

By becoming a brahmana, hearing, hearing, hearing... Or by hearing, hearing, hearing, he becomes a brahmana. The other qualities, shudra quality, kshatriya, vaishya, means finished. So then next stage is shrinvatam sva-kathah krishnah punya-shravana-kirtanah, hridy antah... [SB 1.2.17]. Nashta-prayeshv abhadreshu. [From SB 1.2.18] By this process, hearing... Without becoming a brahmana nobody is interested to hear. Then, by hearing, nashta-prayeshv abhadreshu, then abhadra... means the base qualities, means ignorance and passion... These are the base qualities. So nashta-prayeshv abhadreshu. When these base qualities are finished almost, not complete, nityam bhagavata-sevaya, by hearing from Bhagavata or by serving the spiritual master and Krishna consciousness movement—

nashta-prayeshv abhadreshu
nityam bhagavata-sevaya
bhagavaty uttama-shloke
bhaktir bhavati naishthiki [SB 1.2.18]

[ SB 1.2.18: "By regular attendance in classes on the Bhagavatam and by rendering of service to the pure devotee, all that is troublesome to the heart is almost completely destroyed, and loving service unto the Personality of Godhead, who is praised with transcendental songs, is established as an irrevocable fact."]

Then he becomes fixed up in devotional... This devotional service is the first-grade quality of sattva-guna.

nashta-prayeshv abhadreshu
nityam bhagavata-sevaya
bhagavaty uttama-shloke
bhaktir bhavati naishthiki [SB 1.2.18]

Tada rajas-tamo-bhavah. [SB 1.2.19: see below] When one is situated as a devotee, then this base quality—rajas, tamah, ignorance and passion, the symptoms: kama-lobhadayash cha ye. Kama, lusty desires, and greediness. Sex desire, strong sex desire or satisfy the senses, eating too much, lobha, greediness—these things go. Nityam bhagavata-sevaya bhagavaty uttama... When one is situated in devotional service, tada rajas-tamo- bhavah. These are rajas-tamo... These are the symptoms of rajas-tamo-bhavah.

tada rajas-tamo-bhavah
kama-lobhadayash cha ye
cheta etair anaviddham
sthitam sattve prasidati [SB 1.2.19]

[SB 1.2.19: "As soon as irrevocable loving service is established in the heart, the effects of nature's modes of passion and ignorance, such as lust, desire and hankering, disappear from the heart. Then the devotee is established in goodness, and he becomes completely happy."]

The mind is no more disturbed with all these things. Sthitam sattve prasidati. Then he is to be understood... He's in the sattva-guna. That is perfect brahminical life. Then he'll be pleased. Prasidati. In this way, gradual step...

So it is very difficult to bring, introduce varnashram, but at least there must be some idea. Just like in the university, nobody is going to study higher mathematics, higher English literature. Nobody goes even in your country. The classes are almost vacant. But still, the government does not close it. The expenditure is high, but there is no student, no income. Therefore the professors coming to us, "Give us some student." You know that?

Satsvarupa: Religion professors.

Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, higher studies...

Satsvarupa: Yes. "Send us some of your men."

Prabhupada: Nobody is interested with higher study. They want some technological understanding so that they can earn money. That's all. This is only interest.

Satsvarupa: In our ISKCON, one becomes a brahmana after a year. It's not very hard. Everyone becomes a brahmana.

Prabhupada: That is due to chanting. That lifts very easily.

Hari-sauri: Where will we introduce the varnashram system, then?

Prabhupada: In our society, amongst our members.

Hari-sauri: But then if everybody's being raised to the brahminical platform...

Prabhupada: Not everybody. Why you are misunderstanding? Varnashram, not everybody brahmana.

Hari-sauri: No, but in our society practically everyone is being raised to that platform. So then one might ask what is...

Prabhupada: That is... Everybody is being raised, but they're falling down.

Hari-sauri: So then we should make it more difficult to get...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hari-sauri: ...brahminical initiation. After four or five years.

Prabhupada: Not necessary. You remain as a kshatriya. You'll be ...

Hari-sauri: No need for even any brahmana initiation, then...

Prabhupada: No, no.

Hari-sauri: ...unless one is...

Prabhupada: No, brahmana must be there. Why do you, say, generalize?

Hari-sauri: Unless one is particularly...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hari-sauri: ...inclined.

Perfect what you are rather than seek promotion to something you aren't

Prabhupada: Not that a shudra man is by force become a brahmana. You cannot improve. That is not possible. But even if he remains a shudra and does accordingly, he will get the same position as devotee. Sva-karmana tam abhyarchya sam... [From Bg. 18.46: "{By worship of the Lord, who is the source of all beings and who is all-pervading} a man can attain perfection through performing his own work."] He'll get the perfection. At the present moment the idea is: if one remains a shudra, then he cannot get perfection. No. Even a shudra can get perfection provided he does the work of a shudra perfectly.

Hari-sauri: For Krishna.

Prabhupada: Therefore why a shudra artificially should be a brahmana? Let them, let him remain a shudra, and if he follows strictly the rules and regulation of shudra, he'll also be as good as a brahmana. The same example: Just like head is as important as my leg. It is not that because it is leg, it is less important than my head. And if you ask the head, "Do the work of a leg," it is impossible. And if you ask the leg to work as a brain, that is impossible. Let him remain brain, let him remain leg, and do your duty and you become perfect.

Satsvarupa: Today you've been saying that the Vaishnava is the highest, above the brahmana. But then we've also understood that everyone in ISKCON is a Vaishnava.

Prabhupada: Yes. Vaishnava everyone, even if he's not brahmana: jivera 'svarupa' haya-krishnera 'nitya-dasa' [Cc. Madhya 20.108]: "It is the living entity's constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krishna because he is the marginal energy of Krishna and a manifestation simultaneously one and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Krishna has three varieties of energy."] But you have to gradually bring him to that pure consciousness that "I am servant of Krishna." Here the bodily conception is going on—"I am American," "I am Indian," "I am this," "I am that."

Satsvarupa: If in our society we say, "Srila Prabhupada wants some to be shudra..."

Prabhupada: No, no, no. I don't want. I want everyone to become Vaishnava. But because he's a shudra, it is not possible to bring him immediately to the platform of brahmana, or Vaishnava. Therefore falling down. Therefore system must be. But even if he remains a shudra, he's a Vaishnava.

Hari-sauri: So we'd have to completely revise the whole system that we have now.

Prabhupada: No. Whatever we have, that is all right. But we see by experience that they're falling down. There must be systematic. Why falling down? Because he was not fit for the position, therefore he has fallen. Better remain in his position and become perfect. Why artificially bring them? There is no need. Krishna says. Bring that Bhagavad-gita. Sve sve karmany abhiratah?

Hari-sauri: [reads:]

sve sve karmany abhiratah
samsiddhim labhate narah
sva-karma-niratah siddhi
myatha vindati tach chrinu

"By following his qualities of work, every man can become perfect. Now please hear from Me how this can be done." [Bg. 18.45]

Prabhupada: Yes. He is shudra, clerk. He can... As a shudra, he can get the perfection. Why he should artificially become a brahmana and sannyasi and fall down? This has to be checked.

Hari-sauri: So that depends upon our men who are giving recommendations.

Prabhupada: So that recommendation is not good. Bible is giving so many recommendation. He's also not following them. [laughs]

Hari-sauri: Following them. So how will we implement? Right now we have... Every temple president can...

Prabhupada: That is supposed. Where there is no tree, a castor seed tree is very big tree. That is going on.

Satsvarupa: If there's no tree?

Prabhupada: You know castor seed tree, a plant? It does not grow [here]?

Satsvarupa: Small.

Prabhupada: Small. So there is no banyan tree. It is taken—"Oh, it is very big."

Hari-sauri: I don't follow the analogy.

Satsvarupa: In the complete absence of trees, then a small tree is considered big.

Hari-sauri: Oh. [laughs] Well, say, like here in Mayapura now we have a situation...

Prabhupada: No, no. Why? Why one should stress to become big tree? Here it is clearly said even if you are small tree, you can get perfection. So we should take that.

Hari-sauri: So in Mayapura here now we have that situation, that so many...

Prabhupada: Everywhere, wherever, Mayapura or anywhere. Question is that here it is clearly said, sve sve karmany abhiratah. Brahmana has his duty, kshatriya has his duty, vaishya has his duty, shudra has his duty. And if he performs his duty nicely, then he also becomes perfect. So why artificially he should be called a brahmana? Let them do, according to shastra, the work of shudra, or vaishya. He'll get the perfect. Perfection is not checked. But why artificially he should be made a brahmana or he should be made a sannyasi and fall down and become a ludicrous? That is the point. Better let him live in his position and become perfect. That's good. That looks very nice. And that is. That is possible. Varnashrama charavata purushena parah puman vishnur aradhyate [Cc. Madhya 8.58]. [From Parashara Muni in Vishnu Purana (3.8.9): "The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Vishnu, is worshiped by the proper execution of prescribed duties in the system of varna and ashrama. There is no other way to satisfy the Lord."] Vishnu, Lord Vishnu, can be worshiped if you perfectly follow the rules and regulation of four varnas and four ashramas. Here it is also said, sve sve karmani. You work as a perfect brahmana or a perfect kshatriya, perfect shudra; you get perfection. The perfection is available in your natural life. Why should artificially you become unnatural and fall down and become ludicrous? Perfection is not checked.

Satsvarupa: But in most of our temples, the duties are either Deity worship, brahmana...

Prabhupada: Brahmanas are available. Why you are bothering about this? Brahmanas are also available, shudras are also available. Why shudra should be artificially become a brahmana?

Re-present the ideal

Satsvarupa: What will the shudras do in the big city temple, in all the temples?

Prabhupada: Why you are bringing our temples? I am talking of the principle.

Satsvarupa: Oh.

Hari-sauri: The principle we follow. We're just thinking how it can be implemented. You were saying that it should be started in our society.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is a very broad idea. Now we are speaking of some of them, training them. That is another thing. That is small scale.

Hari-sauri: The principle we're following.

Prabhupada: Yes. In the... For the big scale, this is the required. In big scale you cannot make all of them as brahmanas or sannyasis. No. That is not possible. This is a small scale. How many percentage of people of the world we are controlling? Very insignificant. But if you want to make the whole human society perfect, then this Krishna consciousness movement should be introduced according to the Krishna's instruction, if you want to do it in a large scale for the benefit of the whole human society.

Now we are picking up some of them, best. That is another thing. But Chaitanya Mahaprabhu said para-upakara. [From Chaitanya-charitamrita Adi 9.41: "{One who has taken his birth as a human being in the land of India (Bharata-varsha) should make his life successful and} work for the benefit of all other people."] Why a certain section should be picked up? The whole mass of people will get the benefit of it. Then it is required, systematic.

Sve sve karmany abhiratah samsiddhim labhate narah. [From Bg. 18.45: "By following his qualities of work, every man can become perfect..."] Para-upakara means mass benefit, not there is certain section. Then we have to introduce this varnashram-dharma. It must be done perfectly, and it is possible and people will be happy...

Just like Prahlada Maharaja. He said that "I am quite happy. I have no problem. But I am thinking of these rascals." Tato vimudha-chetasa indriyartha: "They have made the whole aim of life sense gratification." Indriyartha. "And for that purpose, a few years, they're making huge arrangement, how we shall become happy?" And next life a dog. It is risky. So as Krishna conscious men, we should try to save them. That is the duty. But this civilization as it is going on is very risky. They do not know how nature's law is working, how he's going to be a dog next life. He does not know. Mudho nabhijanati. To save the mass people from falling down to the repetition of birth and death, that is welfare activity. To save them by Krishna consciousness, we have to keep this ideal at least, varnashram, that "Here is the position."

Hari-sauri: At this time should we try to introduce it in our centers or not?

Prabhupada: Always we shall try. Human society will be always there. We have to serve them, para-upakara. We have to keep them in the right position.

Hari-sauri: I just remember two or three years ago there was a thing... A pamphlet came out about introducing the varnashram system in the society, but actually nothing came of it.

Prabhupada: Yes. That time was not right. Now you can do something.

Satsvarupa: That was the beginning of emphasis on farms when Prabhupada said that, when more and more farms start, the idea of the vaishya. But nothing else happened.

Prabhupada: Every business is important. brahmana business is important, kshatriya... Just like the body. Head is important; the arm is important; the belly is important. They must be kept in order. Just like I am in trouble because my belly is not working. Digesting power is not good. So in spite of brain, hand, and leg, I am diseased.

If any part of the society remains diseased, the whole society will suffer. Therefore they must be maintained in correct order. You cannot say if there is some trouble in the leg, "Neglect the leg. Take care of the brain." No. Brain will be taxed due to the pain in the leg. This is nature. Therefore everyone should be kept in order. Then things will go on. That is varnashram. They do not know that. Sometimes they are giving stress... That communist is giving stress to the shudra class, and the capitalist are giving to the belly class. And what about the head? What about the arms? And therefore topsy-turvied. Everything is disorder. There are two classes of men now—capitalist and communist. The communist is giving stress, "No. Simply the legs shall be taken care." What is called? Proly?

Hari-sauri: Proletariat.

Prabhupada: What is that proletariat?

Satsvarupa: The laborers.

Prabhupada: That's all. These rascals are giving stress on the legs. And the capitalists, they are giving stress on production. And where is the kshatriya and brahmana?

Hari-sauri: Well, they're all giving stress to accumulation of weapons. They're all giving stress to...

Prabhupada: That is not kshatriya's business. That is... That is... No, that is described. Krishna said... He arranged the battlefield, because the kshatriyas, they became very powerful by individual military strength as it is now...

Hari-sauri: Accumulation.

Prabhupada: Ha. So Krishna arranged: "All right, you come together and finish yourselves." So this arrangement will be done that all atomic bomb will come in warfield—one, next, third war, finished. All these, all these demons will be finished. That is not kshatriya. This is demonic. Kshatriyas' business is to see that the four orders of life are maintained properly, not increasing military strength only, overburdened. Everyone is spending 75% of the revenue for military. Huh? Paritranaya sadhunam vinashaya cha dushkritam. [Bg. 4.8]: To deliver the pious and} to annihilate the miscreants, {as well as to reestablish the principles of religion, I Myself appear, millennium after millennium.}"] So they are demons. Why so much money should be spent for military? They are not kshatriyas. They are not kshatriyas. They are demons. So demons... As soon as there will be number of demons increased, there will be war and finish all.

Hari-sauri: So at least if we successfully introduce the varnashram system in our own society, then when all the demons finish themselves...

Prabhupada: At least... At least... At least they will see, "This is the ideal."

Hari-sauri: Yes. Then if there is a war after that, it will be all right.

Prabhupada: At least ideal must be there. That we are doing.

Hari-sauri: This will more or less revolutionize the way we're running our centers. If we introduce it, it will more or less revolutionize the way we're running our centers.

Prabhupada: Why? Why revolution?

Hari-sauri: Because right now our only emphasis is just to simply produce brahmanas .

Prabhupada: So why you are taking "we"? Why not others? This is kanishtha-adhikari. You are thinking of "we." That is kanishtha-adhikari. It is not that "we." Na tad-bhakteshu chanyeshu. [SB 11.2.47: see above.] You have to think for others also.

Satsvarupa: But the people are not at our disposal to organize.

Hari-sauri: We are thinking of "we" because actually we only have our own society at the moment to organize.

Satsvarupa: We cannot approach the masses to organize.

Hari-sauri: It can't be implemented on such a big scale.

Prabhupada: I do not follow what you say.

Satsvarupa: Just like...

Prabhupada: Ideal. We are giving the ideal.

Satsvarupa: But no one's listening and no one's taking it up except a few...

Prabhupada: But you take. You show them.

Hari-sauri: That's why we say, "we."

Prabhupada: That "We said" means not we are going to take them, but we are simply giving the ideas. We are not going to be a shudra. But to show the... Just like you play in a drama. You are playing the part of a king. You are not a king.

Hari-sauri: No.

Prabhupada: So similarly, just to give them idea, we have to play like that.

Hari-sauri: Well, again, that's...

Prabhupada: Not necessarily that we are going to be shudra. So that is it. That is the thing. We are servant of Krishna. That's all. And as servant of Krishna, we have to execute the order of Krishna.

Satsvarupa: So we can ideally organize ourselves and then for the rest of the people all we can do is hope that they'll follow it.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Bhavananda: Set the example.

Prabhupada: Example. Just like Bhavananda, when there was no commode here. He was taking my stool and urine. Does it mean he is a sweeper? He's a sannyasi Vaishnava. Similarly, naham vipro na cha nara-patir napi... [From Padyavali 74: "I am not a brahmana, I am not a kshatriya, I am not a vaishya or a shudra. Nor am I a brahmacari, a householder, a vanaprastha or a sannyasi..." cited in Chaitanya-charitamrita Madhya 13.80] Chaitanya Mahaprabhu said, "I am not a sannyasi." But He took sannyasa. Actually He is God, so what is the benefit of becoming a sannyasi, for God? But He became that. In order to serve the mass of people, to bring them to the ideal position, we should try to introduce this varnashram, not that we are going to be candidates of varnashram. It is not our business. But to teach them how the world will be in peaceful position we have to introduce... Here is a very nice institution for the benefit of the whole society human.