Why American went to Vietnam? To stop communism, but ... we have to stop demoniac civilization. Then the human society will be happy and in normal condition.
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America Has to Stop Demonism

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Founder-Acharya of the world-wide Hare Krishna Movement, Brahma Sampradaya Acharya

Srila Prabhupada

Morning Walk Conversation, December 13, 1973, in Los Angeles. 

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Prabhupada: ...is contamination. Just like when a person is diseased, you find so many extra chemicals in his body. So a diseased person produces such chemicals, not that chemicals are the agents for his life. Try to understand. When a living entity is pure, when he becomes impure, these chemicals are produced out of... Exactly the same thing, just like when a man becomes contaminated, infected with some disease, you will find so many extra things, germs and chemicals in his body. So these extra chemicals, germs, are not responsible for his living condition. Because he is living and because in an awkward condition, therefore these things have been produced by him.

Svarupa Damodara: But how about the normal chemicals which are...

Prabhupada: Normal chemicals must be. Then of the whole world... The material world is made of chemicals. So wherever you go and see, the chemicals in different, what is called, element, they are present. You cannot see but chemicals because you have no eyes to see the soul. So you simply see the chemicals which is produced by the soul. Just like anything you keep for some time, when it is decomposed, you find so many chemicals, extra. So now they are mistaking. The chemicals are not... They are effects, they are not cause. When a thing is decomposed, you'll find so many extra chemicals. Our point is that because a thing is decomposed, so many chemicals come out, not that on account of these chemicals it has given... A dead body. A dead body—not that because the chemicals have come, therefore he is dead, no. Because the body is dead, therefore so many chemicals have been produced. Try to convince this rascal like that, that "You are seeing the extra chemicals. They are not cause, they are effect." Sometimes when a rascal cannot understand two things, which is cause and which is effect, they misunderstand effect as cause or cause and effect. That is imperfect knowledge, illusion, taking the effect as cause. That is their mistake. Whole basic principle of their knowledge is mistake, illusion, on account of imperfect senses, and they are cheating. On account of imperfect senses, they cannot understand what is cause and what is effect. And without knowledge, they have become teacher. Therefore they are not teacher but cheater. This is the conclusion.

Svarupa Damodara: Even if these chemicals are made, Srila Prabhupada, if the environment is not favorable to enter the soul, then the chemicals...

Prabhupada: Therefore I say on account of the environment, these chemicals are produced. Therefore I say. When a man is diseased—the environment has changed—other extra chemicals comes out. It is the environment. I am also pointing out that. The environment is the cause. Chemicals produced in the body of a dead body, you cannot produce in the laboratory because the environment is different. Unless you find out a dead body, that chemicals you cannot manufacture. How can you find out the chemicals of dead body in a living body? Get up. Yes. [laughing] So pay, then the chemical is produced. Without payment, then there is no chemical. Cause is the payment. These rascals, they do not understand this.

[break] ...goes to fight in Vietnam, what is the philosophy? Who will answer?

Svarupa Damodara: They want to stop spread of communism.

Prabhupada: Yes. Similarly, now America has to do the same thing to stop demonism. Then your nation will be leader. You understand; you have trust in God. Now it is your business to trust in real God and work for Him. You cannot... I have explained already. You cannot stop communism. You have to stop demonism. That is your real business. Communism is another type of demonism. So if you remain a demon, so what is the use of stopping another demonism? The same example: stool, the upside is dried up. You cannot say, "Because it is upside of stool, it is better side." Stool is stool. Guer ei pita en opita. [source?] [dog barking loudly] Come on. That's all right. He cannot make the condition of the world better by... Just like Professor Krotofsky. He was saying that there must be revolution. I was talking of authority. So the authority you must have to accept. So he said that authority is accepted upon revolution.

Svarupa Damodara: After revolution?

Prabhupada: Ah. Because I said about authority... So this is fact. Now, in Russia the authority was the Czar. Now, after this Bolshevik revolution, Lenin became authority. That was his point. I said that you have to accept one authority. That you cannot change. That he said, that "Yes, that I accept, but authority has to be changed by revolution." And yes, we accept that. But the ult... When you come to Krishna consciousness authority, then there is no more necessity of change." Yam labdhva chaparam labham manyate nadhikam tatah. Everyone is trying to achieve the greatest profit. So when he gets Krishna, he is satisfied. No more profit. Final profit. Yam labdhva caparam labham manyate nadhikam tatah. So there is no more necessity of revolution because that is the ultimate peaceful condition. So if you do not come to the ultimate condition of peace, then this revolutionary method will go on, continue. There will be no cessation of revolution, one after, one... That is maya, illusion. I am thinking by going a few steps, mirage, I will get the water. But there is no water at all. It is simply illusion. And as soon as you go a few steps forward, you see that the water has gone away, again, few steps forward. You go again. Again you see. This is going on. So animal, they go forward after the mirage. But a sensible man, he knows that "This is not water. It appears like water, but it is not water." Therefore we are making revolution, changing one authority from another, but we do not know they are not authorities. Real authority is Krishna. That is their... Therefore it is called illusion or maya. We are thinking that "From this ism to that ism." Just like there was French Revolution. So the French people are not happy. Still there is unhappiness. Similarly, Bolshevism. We have seen practically in Moscow. Nobody is happy. There cannot be happiness. This is going on. So real happiness is Krishna. That, people should know.

The chemical evolution also, it is also maya. They are thinking by further improvement—just like you were speaking—almost come to the point... That "almost coming to the point," that will continue. You will never come to the point. This is the position. You'll never come to the right point.

Svarupa Damodara: When the concept of chemical evolution, when this fails, then they have to accept that there is a Supreme Being. This will also fail.

Prabhupada: No, this will fail. It is already failed. But because they are...

Svarupa Damodara: Yes, but they are still hoping.

Prabhupada: ...they are fools and rascals, they are still hoping against hope. That's it. It is already failed.

Svarupa Damodara: They are not fully convinced yet.

Prabhupada: Because they are not intelligent. There is a Bengali word, dekhe sekhe teke seke. (?) Means when one who is intelligent, he is seeing the things, he is understanding, "Oh, the consequence of such action is this." So... And another man is so fool. Unless he is actually in that position, he will not learn. One is learning by seeing only and another is learning by actually being in that position. So who is intelligent?

Yasomatinandana: One who is learning by seeing.

Prabhupada: Yes. One who knows that these material things, it has got a beginning and it has got an end... In every day we see that. Even with our body we see that it has a beginning and it has an end. I have seen my father was born and he died. So I am also born; I'll also die. My son is also born; my son will die. This is real experience.

But if somebody says that "I shall not die. We are trying to become immortal," so that is foolishness. That is foolishness. By experience from time immemorial, historical reference, there is no such thing as immortality. But if somebody says, "By chemical evolution we shall become immortal..."

Our Krishna consciousness proposition is that human life is meant for factual knowledge or ultimate knowledge. But these rascals are checking that progress. That means the prerogative of human life is being denied to the human society. So this kind of hindrances should be stopped, either by soliciting or even by force, because the human society is being ruined. These things have to be stopped. Therefore I was inquiring that "Why American went to Vietnam?" To stop communism, but that sort of stopping will not make any solution. We have to stop demoniac civilization. Then the human society will be happy and in normal condition. [break]

Prajapati: As soon as we define what demoniac civilization is, then no one will support us because they'll see that they themselves are demons.

Prabhupada: Yes, because they are demons they cannot understand. Just like one Christian priest went to some quarters, mine, gold mine. So he was describing that "If you do not worship Lord Jesus Christ, you will go to hell." So they asked, "What is hell?" So when he began to describe: "It is always wet. It is dark. There is no sufficient air, so on, so on." They could not understand what is hell because they are already in the hell, in the mine. They could not make any distinction that darkness is a very horrible thing. Similarly, these demons they cannot understand what is demonism. Asuram bhavam asritah [Bhagavad-gita 7.15]. What is that asura-bhava? Not to accept God. This is asura-bhava. This is demonism. This is the basic principle of... Everyone is trying to deny God. Therefore they are demons.

Who was telling that the medical man is considered to be first-class authority?

Devotee: That was Prajapati.

Prajapati: That's what the people believe. They have more trust in medical men than they do in anything else.

Prabhupada: Yes. But medical man also does not understand what is that thing missing which makes this body dead. And still, he is placing himself as authority, as scientific man, and people are accepting. That is demonism. He cannot explain. A man is dying. He is applying his scientific processes, what is called that gas, oxygen gas, and other injection, and in spite of doing all these things, he finds at a moment that the man is dead. And when you ask him that "In spite of your all scientific appliances, why the man is dead?" And still, he has become authority, such foolish man that this man cannot explain that in spite of all his efforts, scientifically, a man is dead. Now what he will answer? He has seen his all kinds of scientific appliances and applied but the man is dead. Now let him explain why the man is dead. Can he explain?

Prajapati: Not to our satisfaction.

Prabhupada: No, no, satisfaction or not satisfaction, what he will answer possibly? Now, you are scientist. You can... What he will say?

Svarupa Damodara: He will say that it is above his means.

Prabhupada: Therefore you are a fool. Why you are becoming authority?

Svarupa Damodara: He will say that "I have tried my best, but I cannot do it."

Prabhupada: That's all right. That means you do not know. A child also tries his best, but he cannot do. That does not mean he becomes authority.

Prajapati: He will say that there needs to be certain conditions...

Prabhupada: What is that condition?

Prajapati: ...for the sustenance of life.

Prabhupada: No, no, certain conditions, that is not... That is vague. You say what is that condition. Then you are authority.

Prajapati: Electrical charge in the heart.

Prabhupada: Then do it, do it. Electricity is there.

Prajapati: Well, they are able to take some people. Their heart has stopped, they seem to be dead, they inject electrical nodes in the heart and they bring them back to life.

Prabhupada: Back to life how long?

Prajapati: Life can continue.

Prabhupada: Continue forever?

Prajapati: No.

Prabhupada: Then? He'll die. That is another thing. He'll die. Why he'll die? What is that condition? If you say, "chemical condition," now, as chemist, if you say, "The chemical condition has changed," we'll reply, "No chemical condition has changed." So produce life. No chemical condition has changed because life will come out immediately. So many germs and worms, they will come out. So where is the chemical condition of producing life is changed? How can you say? But that life is not coming. That Mr. John, his life is not coming. Therefore he is an individual soul. Otherwise the chemical condition is there. Otherwise how these germs and worms are coming out? But Mr. John is not coming. Therefore it is conclusion that "This is individual soul. He has gone, but he is not coming." But other living beings are coming out.

Svarupa Damodara: What is the condition of the soul, innumerable souls, within the body? Like the cells. All are living cells. These all contain individual souls.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarupa Damodara: So what these individual souls are doing to support the bigger soul?

Prabhupada: No, they are living individually. Just like there are many germs in your stool. Because the stool is there, they are living. That is their perfect condition of living. That's all. But that germs has nothing to do with this individual soul, Mr. John. Just like I am living, you are living, but we are all independent different souls. They are living in their own condition, you are living in your own condition. But when you go to office to work, you find so many others are also working. But that does not mean they are dependent on your working or you are dependent on their work. But the condition is like that.

Svarupa Damodara: But it looks like I am the proprietor of these souls.

Prabhupada: No, no, you are not proprietor, nobody is proprietor. You are put into that condition by God. Real proprietor is God. You are simply placed in that condition, that's all. That is your dependence on the condition offered by God.

Svarupa Damodara: But just like in a office, the boss is working and there are different clerks. There are secretaries helping him.

Prabhupada: Yes, therefore the boss is the chief man who is giving work: "You like this. You work like this. You work like this. You work like this."

Svarupa Damodara: So I am the boss.

Prabhupada: No, you are not boss. You are also one of the workers.

Prajapati: Are you telling how the stomach to digest and how the hair to grow and how the...?

Prabhupada: No, you are not...

Svarupa Damodara: No, I am talking about the relationship between my, so many individual souls, the cells, and my spirit soul.

Prabhupada: Relationship... Wherever you go, there is some relationship. That is... That inter-relationship is already there. I am walking on this sand. I have got some relationship. If the sand would have been soft, I could not walk. So the relationship is there already, intermingled. But what is the central relationship? That is wanted, to know. That is God.

Svarupa Damodara: But when the cells, my cells in the body, they are not working, my soul goes away. As so long as I am here...

Prabhupada: That is your theory that because the cells were working, the man was living. That is your theory. But our theory is that because he was there, the cells were working. That is our theory. Because the soul was there, therefore the cells were working. But you take... That I have already explained. You take the cause as effect, and effect as... Because you have no sufficient knowledge. Therefore in illusion, you take the cause as effect or effect as cause. You do not know what is the cause and what is the effect.

Prajapati: But the doctors, they can say, "Oh, this man has disease of the blood. He will die in six months."

Prabhupada: That is experience. Suppose if I can say that "If you go hundred feet, then you'll fall in the water," is that very good scientific knowledge? It is a question of experience. Why do you take it as wonderful? "Oh, he said that if you go a hundred yards, you'll fall in the water. Now I have fallen in the water." That is your foolishness. Any fool can say like that. He must have little experience, that's all. That is not very wonderful thing. Neither it is creation by him. Experience.

Prajapati: Then they can say, "Well if we can cure this blood disease, he will live."

Prabhupada: There was one physician in Dacca. He was... Morning, he was washing his face. So one man was going, and he was coughing. So he asked that man, "Come here. Where you are going?" So— he was a cultivator—"I am going to the field." So he said, "Better go home. Don't go to the field." So he was a respectable physician, so he went back. So his students asked that, "How is that, you asked him to go home?" So he chastised his stu..., "You do not know that he is coughing and the sound is like this? He will die after eight hours." It is experience. The students did not know but he could understand, "Coughing under such and such sound, it means death after such and such time." Yes. That, kaviraja can tell. When my father died, the kaviraja said, "Now you can do the rituals because he will die before next morning." He said. And actually it so happened. He said me this about ten, eleven o'clock, and he said exactly, "Before next morning he'll die." So that is experience. If you say, "After twenty days the month of January is coming," the child cannot understand, "How father said that twenty days after, January is coming?" But it is better experience only that one can say, "Today is 10th, and after twenty days, 1st January, will come." Everything is experience. But supreme experience is Krishna. Therefore if we receive experience from Him, then our experience becomes perfect. This is our proposal.

Svarupa Damodara: If I am the boss of my body...

Prabhupada: You are boss of your body in the sense that you can utilize your body in any manner you like, so much. But there are other condition which is beyond your... Suppose... so long you are living, you can utilize your body, your senses, to understand the ultimate goal of life. But you cannot utilize your life in such a way that you will never die. That is not possible.

Svarupa Damodara: So I am controlled also.

Prabhupada: Yes. Why don't you understand that? You are controlled always. [break] You are walking. This is also controlled. At any moment you can be paralyzed, at any moment.

Svarupa Damodara: So even I am not the boss of my body, then?

Prabhupada: No, no. That is said. Why don't you read Bhagavad-gita?
prakriteh kriyamanani
gunaih karmani sarvasah
kartaham iti manyate
[Bhagvad-gita 3.27]

He is being pulled by the ear, by material nature, but he is, rascal, thinking that "I am the boss." This is explained in the Bhagavad-gita. Prakrteh kriyamanani. Did you not read this? Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah ahankara-vimudhatma. Puffed up in false egotism, he is thinking that he is boss. That is illusion. He is not boss. But he is thinking he is boss. Ahankara-vimudhatma. One who is thinking that "I am boss," he is ahankara-vimudha. By false egotism and being a rascal, he is thinking like that. And because everyone is under that impression, therefore we say generally, "Rascal. Rascal." People may be amazed, "Why this gentleman says everyone rascal?" But prakrteh kriyamanani, vimudhatma. Bhagavad-gita it is said, "Anyone who is thinking that he is boss, he's a rascal." [break] ...Scientists struggle is that he wants to stop the action of prakrti, nature. That is his foolishness. That is not possible. You cannot become boss of the prakrti. You are under prakrti. The boss of prakrti is Krishna. Mayadhisa. [break]

...guna-sango 'sya sad-asad-janma-yonishu. You are getting different types of body on account of your association with the different modes of material nature. Why one soul has got this body, dog's body, and why one soul has got a human body? Everything is being done by prakrti, by nature. Now in this human form of body, you get that discrimination, "What should I do?" If you act like cats and dogs in this life, then you are missing the chance. You do not take advantage of the power of discrimination. Bhagavad-gita says, dehantaram: "Another body one gets." So another body... And next body I can get this dog's body. But you have... In human form of life you have got the discriminating power not to get the dog's body, but you can get the body of a god. That you can do. Now it is our discrimination, "Whether I am going to get a dog's body or god's body." That you can do. This is human form of body. A dog cannot not do. He has no such discrimination power. But you can do. So if you do not do that, then you are missing the opportunity. Yanti deva-vrata devan pitrn yanti pitr-vratah [Bhagavad-gita 9.25]. This is the verse. Anywhere you like, you can go if you utilize your, this human form of body properly.

Prajapati: Should also this be the responsibility of the government to protect people from having to take dog body?

Prabhupada: Yes, that is the government's duty, that the citizens may not degrade. That is government's duty. Now, just like a father thinks, "Now, these children have come under my protection. I must see they get proper education and make advancement of life." It is the father's duty. And if the father thinks, "Let him go to hell." That's all. Nowadays fathers are doing like that. That is not father's duty. Similarly, government's duty is that the citizen must make progress. But they do not know what is means by progress, what is the aim of life. They do not know. They are demonic. How they will guide?

They think, like cats and dogs, "If you get fatty and you can eat more, then your life is successful." Their thinking is very poor. Simply physical strength, they think that is success. But he does not think that physical, the elephant has physical strength so much, the tiger has physical strength so much, but what is the use of their life? After all, it is an animal. But they are thinking like that, "If you get strength like an elephant or like tiger, then your life is successful." They're thinking like that. But because they do not know what is the aim of life, what is the goal of life. A dog does not know what is the aim of life. But even if I say that "This is the aim of life," it will not understand because the body is different. But a human being can understand.

Therefore there are so many books of knowledge. So if they do not get proper knowledge, that means they are missing the point. [break] ...tavad abodha-jato yavan na jijnasata atma-tattvam: "So long one does not come to the point of understanding the spirit soul, whatever he is doing he is being defeated because the main point is missing." Like cats and dogs he is accepting this material body as self, and he is working on that platform. Therefore his life is being spoiled. [break] Our mission is to save human being from being spoiled like animals. That is our mission. The greatest humanitarian work. [break]

Prajapati: Krishna has given us free will to choose or reject the godly life. Should the government take away that free will of whether they choose to...

Prabhupada: No, that free will is not to be given. It is already there. Rather, Krishna says He has given free will, but His personal advice is: "I am now talking to you the most confidential words." Sarva-guhyatamam. "You stop your so-called free will. Just surrender to Me." This is the most confidential. "If you surrender to Me, that is good for you. But if you go on keeping your free will you'll not be happy." There is also free will. When you come to the Krishna platform you serve Krishna with free will, not that you become a stone. There is free will. Just like our devotees they are dressing Krishna nicely, is there no free will? They are cooking for Krishna. Is there no free will? The free will is there. The Mayavadi philosopher says, the Buddha philosopher says, that "Stop this free will, and then you become happy." But our proposition is not to stop free will but purify free will. Purify. Not stop these eyes. Just if it is suffering from cataract, cure that cataract. Keep the eyes. And their proposition, "Get out these eyes and throw it. Then there will be no more seeing what is right and wrong." That is their proposition. Nirvisesha-vadi. Nirvisesha means no speciality, no varieties. That is nirvisesha. And sunya, zero. When it is zero, then there is no question of right and wrong. So our philosophy is not that. There is no zero, and there is no varieties. We don't say. There is, but it's purified varieties. Tat-paratvena nirmalam [Chaitanya-charitamrita Madhya 19.170]. Nirmalam means purified. So our process is to purify everything. We don't want to stop. That is not our proposition. They cannot find out any solution. Therefore they want to make stop: "Stop this business." Suppose a business is not going very nicely. It is going at loss. Somebody says, "Close it." But one experienced man comes: "Why should you close? All right, I shall do it properly. You'll get profit." So who is better? One, by disappointment, he says, "Close this business. There is no profit." And another man says, "No, don't close it. We shall make you profit. We shall show you profit. Just manage it properly." This is our proposition. We don't say that "Stop all these material activities." No. Just do it properly so that you get real profit and real benefit. That is our program. We don't want to make it zero, no. Why shall I make it zero? [break]

...can be taken just like there is business, but the workers, the assistants, they have no idea who is the proprietor. So everyone is doing something, taking pocket, something this, take pocket, his pocket, so how the business will go on nicely? That is being done. Everyone, these rascals, they have no idea who is the proprietor of this world. So they are doing in their nonsensical way. Therefore there is confusion. The business is not profitable. But if they accept, "No, the real proprietor is such and such gentleman, so he wants to do us like this," then the business will be profitable. Everyone is thinking that he is proprietor, so how this business will profit? This is the position. Everyone is thinking that he is the proprietor. He forgets that he is worker. He is not proprietor. That is the mistake. Therefore the business is mismanaged, and there is no profit, simply chaos. That is the position. [break] ...says in the Bhagavad-gita:

bhoktaram yajna-tapasam
suhridam sarva-bhutanam
jnatva mam shantim richchati
[Bhagavad-gita 5.29]

"If you want to stop this chaotic condition, then accept Me that I am the enjoyer and proprietor of this whole world, and I am your real friend. Let the business be done on My account, you take your right salaries, you be happy, and there will be no chaotic condition." But here the position is that everyone is thinking proprietor, and as far as possible, he is taking all the money, and other is starving. He is not getting his salary even. So he also, because he is weak, he cannot steal. The stronger, he is stealing. There is fight. Just like this chaotic condition of the petrol. The Arabians thinking that "I am the proprietor. Why shall I give to the Americans?" Thing is there, but it is chaotic only because they do not accept the proprietor is God. That is the defect. How you can give freedom for stealing? Stealing freedom means punishment awaiting you. If I give you freedom—"Yes, whatever you like, you can go on stealing"—that means next stage is your punishment. That is going on.

Svarupa Damodara: They will say that proprietor stage is relative.

Prabhupada: Yes, it is relative. Relative means you are servant. You must satisfy by your service to the proprietor and get your nice salary and be happy. Tena tyaktena bhunjitha. Whatever He gives, you accept and be happy. That is Ishopanishad. You don't try to encroach upon others. You receive from the proprietor your emolution [emolument?] or your reward and be happy. That is Ishopanishad. Ishavasyam idam sarvam [Ishopanishad mantra 1]. Everything is God's property. You take your share. You have got right. Just like a father and the son. There are ten sons. Everyone has got the right to share the property of the father, but as the father gives, not that I take away the whole property and others, brothers, may starve. That is not allowed. That is criminal. Here in the material world everyone has come to get the best profit, without considering profit for others. Others may go to hell. "Others, let them go to the slaughterhouse. I must satisfy my tongue." That is material world.

"No, why you are slaughtering other living entities?"

"I don't care. I want to eat. That's all."

So you have to pay for that. You cannot put others into difficulty because God is equally merciful to everyone. But you don't care for God. Therefore you do whimsically whatever you like. So you are putting yourself in difficulty. This is the position. [break]

...mahad-gunah. Therefore without God consciousness, nobody is qualified. Nobody is qualified. Everyone is damned, condemned. [break] ...asato dhavato bahih. By mental speculation he will simply prolong his material existence, that's all. And that is troublesome. Material existence means just this. The dog is material existence. It is a standard of suffering. But he does not know. Under illusion he is thinking that "I am very happy." So everyone is thinking that "I am very happy," but he's in condemned condition. The pig. He is eating stool, living in a filthy place, but he is getting fat because he is thinking he is very happy. This is called illusion. You are thinking, "Oh, what a nasty condition. This animal is eating stool and living in a filthy place." But he is thinking that he is very happy. Unless he thinks like that, he cannot live in that condition. That is called illusion. He does not know what is the actual high standard of happiness.

Prajapati: Highest standard of happiness, Srila Prabhupada, is simply to be in your association.

Prabhupada: Back to home, back to Godhead, that's all. This is highest standard of happiness. We are trying to take everyone to that place. Yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama [Bhagavad-gita 15.6].

Devotees: Thank you. Jaya Srila Prabhupada. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Jaya. [in the car] They are, the so-called scientists, they are taking the effects as cause. That is illusion. Actually the soul has nothing to do with this, anything, material world, but according to the environment he is creating certain material condition. [break] I don't require liquor, but if I want to be intoxicated, then liquor is present.

Svarupa Damodara: Since I am conditioned in this material body...

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes, as soon as I condition, I create an environment which is material. Therefore these so-called scientists, they have no eyes to see the spirit. They take this material condition as the cause of the spirit. And then again, when they find that in spite of presence of these chemicals, the life is not there, they are bewildered. They say, "Yes, we are trying to improve." Therefore they do not find the cells in the dead body.

Svarupa Damodara: They say the cells are also dead in a dead body.

Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, they do not find it. Cells may be dead or they do not find the cells, whatever it may be, but it was dependent on the life. [break] ...with my so many servants. When I die, the servants also go away. So you cannot say that "He was living because the servants were there." You cannot say.

Svarupa Damodara: Because we are individual persons.

Prabhupada: Yes. The master has gone away. Therefore servants do not require to serve. They have dispersed. But you say that "Because the servants were there, the master was existing. Now the servants have left him, he is dead." You cannot say like that. [break] ...ever car, we are under control. Why the red light? Red light is control.

Svarupa Damodara: Actually we are controlled every step.

Prabhupada: Every step.

Karandhara: Any one of these cars could crash into us. We would not be able to...

Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as you transgress the law of control, you'll be crashed. So there is nature's control, and as soon as one goes against nature, he is finished. [break]

Svarupa Damodara: ...Prabhupada told about the scientific...

Prabhupada: He was talking of all these materialistic persons as boka or fools. So I repeat his word. Boka.

Svarupa Damodara: Insects.

Prabhupada: Boka means fool. You don't say this boka?

Svarupa Damodara: Boka, insects, is that?

Prabhupada: Insane, yes. So they are all insane. Anyone who has no clear knowledge what is the aim of life, what is God, "what is my relationship," one who does not know all these things, he is a boka, illusioned. He is hovering in darkness. Therefore, whatever he is doing, it is defeat. That we see practically. So many scientists, so many philosophers, politicians, are engaged to bring in a better condition in the world, but they are failure. In the darkness they are working. They do not know. One boka is trying to excel another boka. This is going on. [break] ...great personality, Rabindranath Tagore, he used to say, a boka. Actually he is so. What he has done? He has given some imaginary songs, that's all. What benefit the people will derive out of it? Simply waste of time, that's all. [break]

Svarupa Damodara: ...could have written a lot of Vaishnava songs, if he were a Vaishnava.

Prabhupada: Yes. But he borrowed the idea from Vaishnava. His guru, not exactly guru... In his zamindari, Golpur, he was going to a Vaishnava, Baul. But Baul is sahajiya. So he got the idea of Vaishnavism, but because he was not Vaishnava, he presented his idea in a different way. That is his Gitanjali. Gitanjali is the depiction of the idea he got from that Baul.

Svarupa Damodara: His songs are so popular in Bengal.

Prabhupada: No, all over the world, more or less.

Svarupa Damodara: Even I sang some of his songs when I was in Calcutta.

Prabhupada: There is idea, some Vaishnava idea. [end]

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