Bhaktivedantas is a very exalted platform

It must continue

Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 13:56:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Miles Davis
Subject: Re: Fwd: RE: Bhaktivedanta is a very exalted platform
To: hans jurgen kary

Hari Bol Hansadutta,
Pranams. This exalted name "Bhaktivedanta" must not end with Shrila Prabhupada. It must continue. Narada Muni was a Bhaktivedanta, and we are in line from him, by Prabhupada's divine grace. There must be a school, exactly as Prabhupada devised, to continue this Bhaktishastri, BhaktiBhaibhava, etc. program for thousands of years. Courses, diplomas, this must be there, along with dedicated preaching activity and following the regs. This Madhuvisa is too young to know anything other than scholarship from the point of view of a kanistha adhikary. He is a very advanced neophyte, a beginner with education, a neophyte with big ideas and little experience. Why waste time talking to this new bhakta?

Of course, as much as you do to push on this exalted platform and title, someone along the line will take the name as a, well, their name. Mr. and Mrs. Bhaktivedanta and their child cute little Bobby Bhaktivedanta. It is inevitible. In this material world of trash, people tend to turn everything into trash. Look what they did to ISKCON.

YS
Pavan

Followers of BHAKTIVEDANTA

[hans jurgen kary > wrote:]
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 11:25:58 -0700
To: harekrishna@krishna.org
Subject: RE: Bhaktivedanta is a very exalted platform

Dear Madhudvisa Prabhu,
Please accept my most humble obeisances, all glories to Srila Prabhupada.

I think I do understand what you mean, but I never thought of the name BHAKTIVEDANTAS the way you have explained the meaning "Many Bhaktivedantas". I don't think people in general will have that understanding, but rather will understand that this is a group of followers of BHAKTIVEDANTA. I may be wrong, so I will consult some others. Perhaps the name should be BHAKTIVEDANTISTS… but this doesn't sound right to me?? What do you think?

Your servant,
Hansadutta das

Minimizes Srila Prabhupada's title

[Madhudvisa wrote:]
Dear Hansadutta Prabhu:

Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Pranbhupada!

Please do not take any offence. You know you will get my thoughts even if they may not be what you want to hear, and I think that is better than pretending to agree but actually disagreeing which is what so many people do.

My realisations of the term "Bhaktivedantas" from Srila Prabhupada is as I have written. I know your realisation is different. But what can I do? It is my realisation at the moment, and I have tried to explain it, but you do not get my explaination.

"Bhaktivedantas" is like "Christs", a collection of Christs; it is not like "Christians", which means a group of followers of Christ. That is my realisation and my understanding of the way things are used in the English language. That is the reason it annoys me greatly because it minimizes Srila Prabhupada's title "Bhaktivedanta." Instead of one Bhaktivedanta and his followers now we have hundreds of Bhaktivedantas. That is why I am annoyed by it.

Chant Hare Krishna and be happy!

Your servant,
Madhudvisa dasa

Belonging to Bhaktivedanta Swami

-----Original Message-----
From: hans jurgen kary
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 8:37 AM
To: harekrishna@krishna.org
Subject: RE: Bhaktivedanta is a very exalted platform

Dear Madhudvisa Prabhu, please accept my most humble obeisances, all glories to Srila Prabhupada. Thanks for your rapid reply.

According to your logic and reasoning, the devotees also should not call themselves the HARE KRISHNAS because hare means the energy of Krishna (THE COMPLETE ENERGY), which no one can claim to be, and Krishna means the Supreme Personality of Godhead, which they or anyone cannot claim to be. So to claim to be A HARE KRISHNA according to your reasoning would be absurd, and it would be (according to your reasoning) just as absurd to designate oneself as a PRABHUPADANUGA, since there are many PRABHUPADAS besides A.C. BHAKTIVEDANTA SWAMI. And most PRABHUPADANUGAS (an invented designation) have not read Srila Prabhupada's books, what to speak of the books of Srila Jiva Goswami Prabhupadaji, Srila Bhaktisidhhanta Prabhupada and others, so that term is not befitting either.

On the other hand, the BHAKTIVEDANTAS means "Those belonging to BHAKTIVEDANTA SWAMI, as a disciple belongs to the guru, or the wife belongs to a husband or as an AMERICAN belongs to AMERICA, or as a Christian belongs to CHRIST, or a Buddhist to Buddha, and so on. My point is that the devoted followers of A.C. BHAKTIVEDANTA belong to Srila Prabhupada as a follower belongs to a leader. If the public misunderstands this, then so be it. They will understand it when they become followers of A.C. BHAKTIVEDANTA SWAMI PRABHUPADA. Without becomming his followers, what can they understand? And who cares for them??

It seems to me that the name BHAKTIVEDANTAS really irritates you. I don't know why, but it should not be an irritation; rather it should inspire and make you joyful. Nevertheless I will think deeply on your points and pray to Srila Prabhupada for guidance. Even if we take it as you have indicated, an aspiring BHAKTIVEDANTA or an accomplished BHAKTIVEDANTA (like an apple green or ripe)… it is transcendentally glorious to be either a follower (neophyte or accomplished) or one belonging to BHAKTIVEDANTA as a dog belongs to its owner. I wish to be the dog of HIS DIVINE GRACE SRILA A.C. BHAKTIVEDANTA SWAMI PRABHUPADA. Is that not the prayer of Bhativinode Thakur? To be a dog at the door of my spiritual master? Therefore I think BHAKTIVEDANTAS, those belonging to Srila Prabhupada, BHAKTIVEDANTA is very appropriate.

Where are you physically these days?

Your humble servant,
Hansadutta das

A group of people who all have the title of "Bhaktivedanta"?

[On 8 July 2005 Madhudvisa wrote:] Dear Hansadutta Prabhu:
Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

I can understand what you are saying, but my difficulty is that when Prabhupada uses the term "Bhaktivedantas" in his books he is not talking about a bunch of aspiring devotees like us who are even having difficulties following the four regulative principles, chanting 16 rounds of the Hare Krishna every day and geting out of bed before 4:00 am for Mangal Aroti. These are things a new bhakta is expected to do. He is using the word "Bhaktivedanta" to refer to the pure devotees of the Lord on the topmost platform.

One place where Srila Prabhupada speaks about the "Bhaktivedantas" in his books stands out to me. That is in the description of Narada Muni's previous life. He was the son of a maidservant, a sudrani, a prostitute even. So he really had no qualification. And when asked how it is that he has become such a great devotee he said that in his previous life sometimes the "Bhaktivedantas" stayed in his mother's house during the rainy season (catura-masya), and during that time he heard them chanting in the mornings and in the evenings and heard them speaking on the transcendental topics. He also just once got the chance of tasting the remnants of the prasadam left by the Bhaktivedantas. So he credits this hearing of the chanting of the Bhaktivedantas and tasting the remnants of their prasadam as the reason he took birth in his next life as Narada Muni.

So these "Bhaktivedantas" Prabhupada is talking about pure devotees of the Lord on the highest platform.

Why not call ourselves the "Prabhupadas"? That would be OK following your logic. But "Prabhupada" is also a very exalted title. The Christians do not call themselves the "Christs", the Buddhists do not call themselves the "Buddhas", nor do the Muslims call themsleves the "Mohammeds" or the "Allahas." All of these groups have names that indicate they are followers of the Buddha, followers of Christ, and followers of Mohammed. "The Bhaktivedantas" means a group of Bhaktivedantas. Like scientists means a group of scientists or scholars means a group of scholars or astrologers means a group of astrologers. So when you say "Bhaktivedantas", naturally people will assume you mean a group of people who all have the title of "Bhaktivedanta".

Another place where Srila Prabhupada speaks about the Bhaktivedantas is in relation to his being awarded the title of "Bhaktivedanta". Some of his Godbrothers awarded him that title to recognize his great scholarly understanding of the Bhagavad-gita, Srimad-Bhagavatam, Caitanya-caritamrta, etc. So it is a title that can only be aworded to someone who is really a great scholar of the Vedas. To call a bunch of bhaktas who have not even read all of Prabhupada's books, what to speak of come to the end of the knowledge of bhakti, is not very good.

In any case the "Bhaktivedanta" title is used by many others. "Bhaktivedanta N.M" for example. It could be confusing. People may think we are followers of NM or any of the other many so-called "Bhaktivedantas" out there.

We already have a title, "Prabhupadanugas." That is of course not in Prabhupada's books, but it is based on "Rupanugas," the followers of Rupa Goswami. I like this title. It shows clearly that we are followers of Prabhupada, not Prabhupada.

So I understand your points, but I do not agree it is a very appropriate title.

PS: I just saw Patita Pavana Prabhu's response, and his point is very good. It would be just as silly to call ourselves the "Madhudvisas." I am not suggesting that you listen to me. I am just suggesting that you look in Prabhupada's books and see how he uses the word "Bhaktivedantas". You will see he does not use it to indicate a group of neophyte devotees. He uses it to indicate devotees on the highest spiritual platform. So I am simply trying to explain that point.

Chant Hare Krishna and be happy!

Your servant,
Madhudvisa dasa

Followers of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 00:07:17 -0700
To: harekrishna@krishna.org
From: hans jurgen kary
Subject: Re: Bhaktivedanta is a very exalted platform

Dear Madhudvisa Prabhu,
Please accept my most humble obeisances, all glories to Srila Prabhupada. Thank you for your thoughtful letter regarding the BHAKTIVEDANTAS. Perhaps you misunderstood the meaning and intention of our use of the name BHAKTIVEDANTAS as a masthead or designation for the web site put up by Das and Bhima in Malaysia. We do not mean to suggest or imply that everyone (rubber stamping) is automatically entitled to use the "Bhaktivedanta" designation as his or her TITLE for prestigious identity, but rather that those devotees who wish to distinguish themselves from the common identity of HARE KRISHNAS being used by many non-Prabhupada followers and who want to identify themselves as being followers of HIS DIVINE GRACE A.C. BHAKTIVEDANTA SWAMI PRABHUPADA exclusively may go by the name BHAKTIVEDANTAS. Meaning that those identifying themselves as BHAKTIVEDANTAS are his followers or disciples by way of embracing his teachings as per his books and directives (RITTVIK REPRESENTATIVE OF THE ACHARYA). In the history of the world we find Franciscans, followers of St. Francis, Christians, followers of Christ, Mohammedeans, followers of Mohammed, Ramanujans, followers of Ramanuja, Buddhists, followers of Lord Buddha, Marxists, followers of Marx, Sankarites, followers of Sankaracharya, Lutherans, followers of Luther, Maoists, followers of Mao Tze Tung, Madhvas, followers of Madhvacarya ..... and so on. Those who feel themselves to be exclusivly followers of Srila Prabhupada, they may want to be identified as Bhaktivedantas, followers of A.C. BHAKTIVEDANTA SWAMI PRABHUPADA. What is the objection to that? Do you think this is unreasonable? It is not an attempt to artificially claim some designation or undeserved title; it is a way of distinguishing those who see Srila Prabhupada as the original Founder and Acharya of the modern-day movement for Krishna Consciousness world-wide. The idea is to distinguish the dedicated disciples from the generic current of deviant Hare Krishna people world-wide. What is the harm? Do you think this is inappropriate?

Your humble servant,
Hansadutta das

Bhaktivedantas is a very exalted platform

[On 8 July 2005 Madhudvisa wrote:] Dear Hansadutta Prabhu:
Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

I know we have had this discussion before, but "Bhaktivadanta" is a title reserved for the devotees who actually reach that platform. "Vedanta" is Veda and anta, means the end of knowledge. And Bhaktivedanta means one who has reached the end of knowledge of bhakti. Means he must be a great scholar of the books at least, and that is what Prabhupada has said clearly in the quotes you have given. That this title "Bhaktivedanta" can be give to his disciples who have studied all his books and passed the exams and actually reached the platform. This can be seen by Prabhupada's quote that those who reach this platform of Bhaktivedanta can initiate new disciples. History shows that Prabhupada did not confer this title of "Bhaktivedanta" on any of his disciples. He wanted them to all become qualified by 1972. But they did not become qualified. That is the history. He still wants us to become Bhaktivedantas. But it is not a rubber stamp. It is a qualification that has to be attained.

So it is not that you can rubber-stamp "Bhaktivedantas." Just declare that we are all "Bhaktivedantas." No it is a very high qualification that has to be actually achieved. Otherwise it is a joke.

Just like Mahatma Gandha called the bangis, the street-sweepers and the untouchables, "Hari-janas." But Srila Prabhupada did not approve of this process of rubber-stamping unqualified men as great saints. He has instructed us that there is a process for raising anyone to the platform of a Harijana, but that process must be followed and the men must actually become purified, actually develop love of Krishna, they have to actually be Harijanas. Otherwise simply rubber-stamping them with a name is useless.

Similarly we can not advertise that we are all "Bhaktivedantas."

Prabhupada is a Bhaktivedanta and he wants to make many more Bhaktivedantas, but real Bhaktivedantas, devotees who have come to the end of the knowledge of bhakti.

As far as I am concerened I am trying to be a devotee, that is all. I am trying to become a follower of Prabhupada. I am not a Bhaktivedanta. But in due course of time that is what Prabhuapda wants us to become. But it is not a very cheap thing.

Chant Hare Krishna and be happy!

Your servant,
Madhudvisa dasa